WD Coil Revisited

I see where Denny is coming from and his bottom line seems to be REGARDLESS if a 6 or 12 volt coil, youre still pumping and interrupting 4 amps through an inductor which is a "passive current device" and current is what does the work whereby energy is stored in a magnetic field that eventually (less heat and transfer losses) gets expended across the plugs gap so theres not much difference (as he sees it) if its a 6 volt coil that does the transfer or a 12 volt as it dont really know or care about the primary voltage. That about it Denny????? ????

HOWEVER myslef and I think SoundGuy and maybe Bob????? are still hanging our hats on the principles of energy conservation and looking at it in terms of net energy transfer. Sooooo o Denny, OK I hear your 4 amps story REGARDLESS OF VOLTAGE. BUTTTTT T lets go back to ENERGY. Power = I squared R,,,,, , and the 12 volt coil has twice the R,,,,, Sooooo ooo even though the current I is still the same 4 amps,,,,, ,I STILL SAY THE 12 VOLT COIL IS TAKING IN AND HAS THE POTENTIAL TO STORE AND TRANSFER INTO THE SECONDAY MOREEEEE EEEEE ENERGYYYYY YYYYY

I think we would all agree ?? the coils induced secondary energy gets expended across the plugs gap by that arcing current in the form of Volts x Amps x Time. Anddddd d since the heat and transfer losses should be near the same percentage wise in a 6 or 12 volt coil (both same basic autotransformer design) since the 12 volt coil has more I squared R energy going in then it ought to have more potential I squared R energy getting transferred into the secondary and the plugs gap. The firing voltage is the same (6 or 12 volt coil and if same plug gap n compression etc) therefore MORE energy being expended across the plugs gap would mean EITHER more current (i.e. more heat) or a longer arc duration. THATS MY STORY N IM STICKIN TO IT UNLESS YOU RASCALS CAN PROVE ME WRONG LOL

I addition to all this theory mumbo jumbo, my heart n gut n intuition just tells me when I turn the ignition switch on and pump energy into my ignition circuit I receive back MORE SPARK GAP ENERGY when I use a 12 volt coil then if I use a 6 volt and have that draconian Ballast Resistor sitting there suckign up and wasting energy into pure heat versus more I squared R energy getting pumped into the coil which can store more of it (as electromagnetic versus heat energy) and dump it across the plug gap where its more useful. I BET SOUND GUY AGREES????? ?? BUT DENNY ????? ??? DO YOU BOB????? ???

UNKNOWN QUANTITY Im fairly ceratin they made and I have seen some older coils with a separate top portion which had a pure (non inductive)resistive element so in affect were 6 vol coils with an INTERNAL ballast. On those I agree NO DIFFERENCE IN ENERGY FROM A 6 WITH EXTERNAL BALLAST VERSUS 12 WITH INTERNAL BALLAST Howeverrrrr rrrrr I think thats the exception and most 12 volt coils have more DC resistance cuz of containing more feet of primary coil wire or different resistance wire IN WHICH CASE I STILL BELIEVE THE 12 VOLT UNIT WILL TAKE IN AND TRANSFER AND DUMP MORE SPARK GAP ENERGY THAN A 6 VOLT COIL

PROVE ME WRONG !!!!! !!!!! !!!!!

Thanks guys, especially Bob n Denny n Sound, I really enjoy this good hearted friendly discussion and all your great inputs. I have learned and hopefully have taught a lil myself. Maybe we can agree to disagree and Im gonna find that deep technical article I have on the Kettering Ignition complete with scope pics and all and e mail it to yall

IM STILL GONNA VOTE FOR THE 12 VOLT COIL BEING ABLE TO IMPART MORE ENERGY (volts x amps x time) ACROSS THE PUG GAP THEN A 6 VOLT COIL THOUGH LOL

God Bless yall the the USA

John T, proud father of a US Marine

BUTTTTT TTTTT TTTTT the 12 volt coil has more windings or just more wire AND I SAY PROBABLY MORE INDUCTANCE AND MORE HENRYS then the 6 volt (has to have something else, cuz its twice the ohms unless it has that pure top resistor only portion) THEREFORE I stand on it has more energy storage capacity (cuz more inductive windings, more Henrys) and is capable of expending more energy across the plugs gap PERIOD..... ..... .

We know the coils firing voltage is the same, so I say with a coil of more inductance and more energy being pumped into it and more storage potential, its just gotta dump more amps (results in heat) across the plugs gap or the same amps over more time. Only Einstein and all that atomic energy and splitting the atom stuff might defeat one of the laws of physics that energy cant be created or destroyed, only changed in form Sooooo oo the 12 volt coil has more energy being pumped in (I squared R),,,,, ,,,,, and if it has more coil n wire it has more Inductance in Henrys,,,,, ,,,,,and it can store more energy,,,,, ,,,,, THEN IT CAN TRANSFER AND EXPEND THAT MOREEEEE EEEEE ENERGY ACROSS THE PLUGS GAP EUREKA !!!!! !!!!! !!!!!

ALSO I agree with you that much of the coils energy gets wasted as heat versus spark gap, HOWEVER the 12 volt coil still has more energy being pumped in to be stored and more which can transferred my mutual inductance over to the secondary to get expended across the plug SO GOSH DARN IT it should still be more then with a 6 volt coil REGARDLESS how much heat is wasted in either.

You ask abuut the plugs energy, to know that one would have to measure the arcing current flow ascoss its gap,,,,, ,, and at what voltage the arc was initiated,,,,, ,,and how long how much curent flowed to get Volts x Amps x Time BUT thats one heck of a hard thing to figure out and compute, I sure dont have the equipmemnt to do it.

WE KNOW FOR DARN SURE any energy wasted in that ballast IS PURE HEAT and Id rather expend my energy in an inductive coil of wire where its stored in a magnetic field and has the potential of getting transferred over into the secondary then the plug gap THEN LETTING IT HEAT UP THE BALLAST which stores ZERO energy.

I reckon we can respectfully agree to disagree but in the meantime know what Im gonna do????? ??? Im gonna run right out to my D 15 and throw that ballast away and install a full 12 volt coil AND I BET IT RUNS BETTER !!!!! !!!!

I bet SoundGuy n maybe Bob will agree with me????

Thanka a bunch Denny, I really enjoy n appreciate your inputs n this discussion.

John T

OBTW, this talk about more voltage means nothing. The voltage is limited to something around 4000 to 5000 volts. This is where the plug usually fires, causing the gap to look like a direct short. I^2R formulas do not work here. You cannot think in terms of watts - you have to think in ERGS.

If you really want more ooooomph from your ignition, use a standard coil and install a breakerless ignition system.

How about YOU buy a modern 12-Volt ignition coil, "name brand, generic", such as a NAPA or Standard Ignition, or even a Filco, and gut it out, and post pictures on here showing the "resistor" you find inside it.

I will reimburse you for the price of the coil, and so will John T, so you'll double your money for the purchase price of the coil!

I will gladly "eat crow" if you can show a mainstream modern coil with an INTERNAL resistor, and you'll double your money in the process... now, lets see the pictures!

(John T, I hope you don't mind me wagering your $15.00 or $20.00 to get to the bottom of this "rural myth"!)

...Bob

Take care and thanks again to all who take the time to actually read n think about this sparky chatter.

Fun topic, who started this mess lol

John T

Youre also correct on 6 or 12 volt condensors and I agree. They are rated in the microfard capacitave value PLUS have a voltage withstand rating. Some people think theres a difference in 6 or 12 volt points or light switches also. The voltage withstand rating is wayyyyy yyyyy y higher then 6 or even 12 volts, so any device that can withstand 6 volts (without arcing or insulation degradation) can certainy also withstand 12 volts. I DOUBT THERES ANY DIFERENCE IN VOLTAGE WITHSTAND RATINGS OF THE CONDENSORS used in the older 6 volt or the newer 12 volt tractors and also defy anyone to find one for ONLY say 6 or 12 volts.

Sorry, I dont have any coil data or specs. I believe some simply had a pure non inductive ballast resistor in the top portion but most other have more resistance due to either more wire or higher resistance wire. 6 volt coils have around 1.5 to 2 ohns primary resistance while 12 volt coils have closer to 3 or a lil betetr ohms THEY ARE NOT THE SAME. The more turns/coils of wire the higher the inductance, PLUS the more wire the more resistance. Its possible to have BOTH more inductance PLUS more DC resistance in one coil over another.

Its also true that if a 12 volt coil had the same windings and turns and all else was identical BUT IT JUST AHD A RESISTOR STUCK IN THERE then the energy stored in its magnetic field WOULD BE THE SAME AS IN AN IDENTICAL 6 VOLT COIL. BUTTTTT TTT if it has more windings or more inductance THEN IT CAN STORE MORE ENERGY PERIOD

A coil is a strictly passive device, it produces no energy and whatever energy you put into it comes back in the form of heat plus Volts x Amps x Time YOU CANT CREATE OR DESTROY ENERGY REMEMBER So the more energy you can store in the magnetic filed of an inductor the more you can transfer to the secondary and eventually the plug cond BUTTTTT TT if you waste energy as pure heat across a ballast THAT GOES TO HEAT ONLY AND CANT EVER GET TO THE PLUG !!!!! !!!!!

REGARDLESS OF ALL OTHER DISCUSSIONS, still the laws of physics and conservation of energy apply, regardless what particulars or inductance or resistance etc. Instantaneous power is Volts x Amps while the total energy expended is still Volts x Amps x Time, and the more energy you put into somethng and the more it can store the more you get out BUT RESISTORS DONT STORE ENERGY, ONLY INDUCTORS OR CAPACITORS and other devices, thats why the energy you waste across a ballast cant ever be expended across a plug gap !!!!!

God Bless yall

Great discussion going, Thanks Doug n Denny for all the thoughts n inputs. Aint elecricity funnnnn nnn lol

They switch faster and more energy gets induced into the secondary so they can get by with higher voltage and still have sufficient current.

What ya think Denny?????

Thanks again for all the help you provide here and with my D 15

John T

But we gotta compare apples to apples and thats not true in the old coil ignitions versus the newer solid state technology pulsed coil type ignition systems.

From literature Ive seen, those high efficiency D lookign framed coils and some auto electronic ignitions DO NOT USE THE SAME OLD FASHIONED SATURATE THE COILS CORE N DUMP THE ENERGY using 12 volt suppled coil current. What some do is to "pulse" the coils primary with a voltage spike higher then just 12 volts. They run high energy high voltage coils and those pulsed (some of them) systems and they reallyyyyy yyy lite a fire lol

Take care Denny, as always, enjoy your inputs and our chats.

John T