Welcome! Please use the navigational links to explore our website.
PartsASAP LogoCompany Logo (800) 853-2651

Shop Now

   Allis Chalmers Case Farmall IH Ford 8N,9N,2N Ford
   Ferguson John Deere Massey Ferguson Minn. Moline Oliver

Attention Forum Users: On the 28th of December 2023 at 9:00am Central Time, we will be taking the forums down for maintenance while we prepare the new forums for your use. Please click here for more information.

Allis Chalmers Discussion Forum
:

wiring alternator

Welcome Guest, Log in or Register
Author 
george henson

10-03-2005 21:19:03




Report to Moderator

i am changing over to a 12 volt system. doyou connect the same wires as on the 6volt system?




[Log in to Reply]   [No Email]
Rod (NH)

10-04-2005 08:10:14




Report to Moderator
 Re: wiring alternator in reply to george henson, 10-03-2005 21:19:03  
Hi George,

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I will side with Steve on the voltmeter vs. ammeter issue. Dump the ammeter in favor of a quality voltmeter and don't look back.

third party image Rod

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
John T

10-04-2005 07:15:26




Report to Moderator
 Re: wiring alternator in reply to george henson, 10-03-2005 21:19:03  
George, YES, many but NOT ALL wires connect the same.

1) For instance, if you had a Generator and Voltage Regulator and switch to an Alternator, its main BAT output terminal now wires to where the BAT terminal on the VR led to, which is usually the Load (NOT to battery/starter) side of the ammeter. ALSO depending upon the current rating of your chosen Alternator, both that wire (from Alternator to ammeters load terminal) PLUS the wire from the ammeters Supply side terminal to the battery/starter) may need to be increased in size, likely to a 10 gauge.

2) I believe they sell both Positive and Negative ground alternators, but most alternators are for Negative ground. Therefore there may be (depends on if youre switching polarity) a few other polarity caused wiring changes, such as:

a) The ammeter leads need to be swapped side to side if you indeed change polarity. b) The coil leads need to be swapped if you change polarity to correspond to what ground you're at.

3) If you chose a true One Wire alternator, its main BAT terminal wires to the ammeters load side and youre good to go. HOWEVER if you choose a 3 wire alternator such as the GM 10SI series, there's additional wiring required to excite the alternator.

4) Change any bulbs n lights to 12 volts.

5) The ammeter will most always work as is (subject to possible wire reversal if you change polarity and assuming its current rating isnt exceeded). Its a pass through current sensing device NOT so much a voltage device. I MUCH PREFER an ammeter to a voltmeter cuz I can look at it and easily read if shes charging or discharinG AND HOW MANY AMPS. More and easily understandable then a voltmeter. The only reason it might not work if it were say only a 20 amp max rated device and you use a 60 amp alternator. If its a 50 amp it should still work fine. If its say a 30 amp (most likely) it MAY still work depending on the alternators max current rating and that likely only happens right after a start up and it might peg the meter a short while but then it would be okay. CANT ANSWER THE QUESTION without knowing the ammeters current max raiting and the alternators rating, sorry.

6) SWITCHES (includign ignition points) NO CHANGES NEEDED assuming their curent rating isnt exceeded which I SERIOUSLY DOUBT would happen. Again, they are a curent load switching device not a voltage device. Their relevant voltage rating is merely a DC voltage withstand rating WHICH IS MUCH HIGHER then the working voltage anyway. In other words, a switch used on 6 volt DC can withstand MUCH HIGHER voltage potential between its working elements (before any arcing or insulation integrity issues arise) then only 6 volts, say for example 50 to 100 volts similar to a switch used on 12 volt DC. They are not usually rated at say for 6 or 12 volt use, they are rated MUCH HIGHER and will work ON EITHER 6 OR 12 VOLT SYSTEMS.

7) IGNITION COIL if its a gas and you change from 6 to 12 volts you MUST EITHER add an external series voltage dropping (12 to 6) ballast resistor in the ignition circuit ahead of the coil or else use a new full 12 volt rated coil or she will run hot plus the points will burn up prematurely

I usually use the GM 10SI as they are so cheap n readily available. I rewire and excite them myself and have never bought any harnesses or other special store bought devices. HOWEVER if youre not knowledgeable or comfy doing it yourself one of the store bought harnesses might be easier.

Clear as mud????? ????? ?????/

John T Nordhoff in Indiana, retired electrical engineer

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Steve in N.J.

10-04-2005 21:11:26




Report to Moderator
 Re: wiring alternator in reply to John T, 10-04-2005 07:15:26  
As Rod said, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but a lot of the 12V data that is being used here on 6V switches will not cut it on these 60+ year old switches. I rebuild and make new parts for the OEM 3 position switches in these AC tractors, and tying an Alternator in front of them is NOT a good idea. I can always tell when one of these switches has had high current run through them whether it's a 6V system that had a short or backfeed, or a 12V conversion system because the high current the 12V systems produce with an Alternator makes heat, and heat is what takes switches out. In the case of the OEM 3 position switch the selector disc inside the switch warps when it's overheated. I'm not saying they're all like that from 12V conversions, but most are. I usually find out from the customer when I ask if they're in fact swapped over to 12V. Nine outta' to say they are. The OEM Ammeters used in these tractors are first, way under rated for a normal 35-60 amp Alternator period! Never mind a 100 amp 1 wire that folks strap on! If for some reason there's a problem in the system which excites the regulator to charge full field (say a sulfated battery for example) that Alternator will make as much power as it can thats needed to stay or overcome the load. The first thing to start smoking will be the wiring and then the Ammeter because that particular 20/20 sweep Ammeter is rated at 18 amps tops with the stock generator. This is one of the major reasons Detroit eliminated in-dash Ammeters in Automobiles starting in the late 50's. Not because the wire was cheaper. That's silly. It was to make the vehicle safer! Especially as time when on and more and more creature comforts were added like full power everything. I've been a field electrical/mechanical troubleshooter for 39 years, and seen quite a few Auto's and trucks burned to the ground by an Ammeter either due to an accident or short where FULL POWER is routed through the dashboard smoking the Ammeter, the wiring, and the underdash insulation, which starts the fire. The same problem exist's with these tractors but just on a smaller scale. Some of the Ammeter boxes are located right in front of the driver on the steering post. I wouldn't want a short circuit or fire in between my legs! I don't think anyone else would either. Not all 6V switches will handle what a 12V system can dish out. That is a very INCORRECT statement if I ever heard one. Especially when it's 60+ years old. Maybe todays newer replacement 6V switches can, but we're talking 1930's & 40's here folks. The post that Rob incorporated on Ammeters vs Voltmeters is self explanatory. Mark Hamilton has done quite a bit of research on this particular subject, and him and I compare notes once in a while on the phone. Unfortunetely, we're on opposite shores. My main objective here is to give folks accurate information so they stay safe and not get hurt. Tractors can be just as dangerous as an Automobile. Let's not invite or invent more problems to a simple system....

And for the folks who enjoy putting in their credentials, here's mine for what it's worth.

Stephen A. Barbato Sr. Class A Senior Field Electrical/Mechanical Gas & Diesel Troubleshooting Technician 39 years
Jersey Central Power & Light Co. Owner- B&B Custom Circuits Newton, N.J. Dealer/Installer- American Autowire Systems

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
John T

10-05-2005 09:10:09




Report to Moderator
 Re: wiring alternator in reply to Steve in N.J., 10-04-2005 21:11:26  
Steve, Thanks for the feedback, its fun to discuss electrical subjects even if we bore others lol and its good to see people actually read these posts and think about them. I strongly agree in the good ol USA all are entitled to their opinions, regardless if they are right or wrong or based on fact or are educated or lay opinions. God Bless the USA..... . where all are entitled to their opinions, be they right or left or wrong lol

I definitely agree its best to replace them old switches with new as they may be damaged like arcing or carbon build up and more typical is the contactor tensions are just loose and worn out. REPLACE OLD WORN OUT SWITCHES PERIOD but if they are good and NOT worn out, I maintain there is absolutely no need whatsoever to replace them SOLELY cuz ur converting from 6 to 12 volts. In fact, given the same load being switched, at twice the voltage, they only have to switch ONE HALF the current and would actually WORK BETTER AND EVEN LAST LONGER !!!!! !!!!! !!!!! Even if you converted from 6 to 12 volts and replaced say lights with 12 volt units (i.e. a different load), the current the switch would have to interrupt might be around the same AND THE SWITCH WILL STILL HANLDE IT FINE as its the current NOT SO MUCH THE VOLTAGE the switches capacity is concerned with.

HOWEVER I defy you to find an auto or tractor toggle or push type switch with a DC voltage withstand rating so low that it would be suitable for ONLY 6 volts but NOT for 12 volts !!!!! !!!!! !!!!! !!!!! If that were so, the intended for 6 volt DC use withstand rating might be so low it couldnt be used on 12 volts!!!!! Switches are rated moreso for the amount of current they can switch then the max voltage they can withstand, which is much higher then their operating voltage anyway, which is why I say one used on a 6 volt tractor will work fine (assuming its not worn out) if you convert to 12 volts.

The DC Voltage withstand rating is that voltage which will not allow arcing between components and for which there would be no insulation failures and believe me, ITS MUCH HIGHER THEM THE RATED OPERATING VOLTAGE. I looked at some switch catalogs and the only ratings I found were 12 volts DC or 277 VAC AND I DIDNT EVEN FIND ANY SWITCHES RATED FOR ONLY 6 VOLTS DC. I suspect the switches used on old 6 volt tractors are rated sufficient for 12 volts anyway, without any arcing or insulation failures??? I JUST DONT SEE THEM WORKING ON 6 VOLTS, BUT IF USED AT 12 THERE WOULD BE INSTANTANEOUS VOLTAGE BREAKDOWN CUZ OF SUCH EXTREME "HIGH" LOL VOLTAGE. I see no way they would not have a voltage withstand rating so low that 12 volts would cause them to arc between members or their insulation break down but NOT so at 6 volts !!!!! !!!!! The DC voltage withstand rating has to be MUCH higher then the UL approved intended operating voltage, like maybe at least 50 volts or even more, if theyre gonna be approved for 6 or 12 volt DC applications.

THERFORE I MUST MAINTAIN MY ORIGINAL POSITION THAT ANY STANDARD TOGGLE OR PUSH PULL TRACTOR OR AUTOMOTIVE SWITCH THAT WAS USED ON A 6 VOLT TRACTOR IS SUITABLE FOR USE IF YOU CONVERT TO 12 VOLTS.

If all they used then was 6 volts and it was the standard of the day, I then suspect and "admit" they may have carried 6 volt labels,,,,, ,, but I still bet their DC voltage withstand rating would have been way higher then only 6 volts (like maybe 50 or more) whereby 12 volt use would NOT cause voltage arcing or breakdown.

HOWEVER I would still replace any old worn switches for safety reasons if I were rewiring REGARDLESS if I were staying at 6 or changing to 12 volts.

I respectfully disagree with your statement,,,,, , "Not all 6V switches will handle what a 12V system can dish out. That is a very INCORRECT statement if I ever heard one".....

which I believe was in response to an earlier statement of mine alluding to the fact a 6 volt switch can handle 12 volts (something like that??)

TO THE CONTRARY, for the same load to be switched with that switch, if youre operating at 12 volts THE CURRENT WOULD ONLY BE HALF what it was at 6 volts. THERFORE the old switch would WORK EVEN BETTER AND LAST LONGER !!!!! !!! 12 Volts dont necessarily "dish out" anything as you stated, the current a switch might interrupt depends upon the voltage and load, and again, at 12 volts it will "dish out" (as you call it) ONLY HALF THE CURRENT and is only working half as it did when used at 6 volts !!!!! !!!!! !!!!! !!!!!

What many laymen dont understand is that the work a switch does and whats its main rating is concerned with IS THE CURRENT IT SWITCHES NOT AT WHAT VOLTAGE ITS OPERATING. A switch that is rated to switch 20 amps (regardless if at 6 or 12 volts) is much smaller and lighter then one for the same voltage but rated to switch 100 amps. Again, however, ITS THE CURRENT MORE THEN THE VOLTAGE that determines the switches design, while the voltage withstand ratign would still be MUCH higher then 6 or 12 volts and is therefore suitable for EITHER.

AMMETER I think we pretty welll agree on their use. Earlier I stated something like a 20 amp max ammeter likely wouldnt suffice if a 50 or 60 amp alternator were used, while a 30 amp "might" depending on the alteranors rating. NOWWWWW if you use like a 100 amp alternator, an old 20 or even 30 amp unit is gonna be severely over current and I would definitely get a higher rated ammeter.

Thanks again Steve for this fun discussion and sorry if we bore the others..... ....

I guess the bottom line is I would replace any old worn out switches when rewiring REGARDLESS if at 6 or 12 volts, but theres no electrical engineering need or reason to replace a "good" switch SOLELY cuz ur converting from 6 to 12 volts, as its ability to withstand voltages is likely MUCH higher then 6 volts anyway, and I SERIOUSLY doubt any arcing or insulation failures would suddenly manifest themselves caused by such "higher" (12 instead of 6 lol) voltages.

Until proven otherwise, "Thats my story and Im stickin to it" lol

Take care Steve,

John Nordhoff Electrical Engineer, BSEE, Purdue University, 1970. Doctor of Jurisprudence, JD, Indiana University School of law, 1994.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Steve in N.J.

10-05-2005 15:25:19




Report to Moderator
 Re: wiring alternator in reply to John T, 10-05-2005 09:10:09  
Hey John! You're right there! It is always fun to talk electrics, even though we don't agree on some things, that's okay. Hey, we agreed on one thing anyway. LOL!! I enjoy gabbing about electrics, just don't like typing about them! Takes up to much time for me. I should be at the build bench where I'm headin' now. Whenever ya get loose, give me a call at the shop. Love to gab electrics with ya!! I think we did bore everybody to death. Everybody left us! LOL!!

Steve@B&B
(973)697-5747

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
John T

10-05-2005 18:02:12




Report to Moderator
 Re: wiring alternator in reply to Steve in N.J., 10-05-2005 15:25:19  
Steve, Thanks for the shout back. Do you ever get to any big John Deere Tractor shows ??? I give electrical seminars n workshops at the Gathering of the Green in Moline Illinois (its next March) and at the New York State JD Expo (in July) and some of the Two Cylinder Expos in Iowa. As you see im more into Mother Deere but its always fun to meet some of yall and BS a little. It would be a boring world if we all agreed lol

Take care, John T (812) 824-4608 in Indiana

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Steve in N.J.

10-05-2005 19:27:12




Report to Moderator
 Re: wiring alternator in reply to John T, 10-05-2005 18:02:12  
Hey John!
Nope! Haven't been to any JD shows. I like all the color tractors. Just a little more partial to Persian Orange. Sounds like you have a good time. I used to do some seminars at a few of the street rod and classic car shows quite a few years back, but just don't get the time anymore to do them. I enjoyed the heck out of those shows and meeting a lot of nice folks! You and I will have to hook up one day. We can have a good time and bicker at one another about electrics! LOL! Us field techs always go round n' round with you engineers. I think it's a fact of life. LOL! I worked with a few GM engineers on some fuel injection projects back in the late 70's. Worked on some wiring systems for the early prototype fuel management and on board closed loop computor systems. That was some wild stuff back then, and look where we are today with this crazy stuff. As I get older, I like the tractors better!
Steve@B&B

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
John T

10-05-2005 20:15:35




Report to Moderator
 Re: wiring alternator in reply to Steve in N.J., 10-05-2005 19:27:12  
Steve, yep I been there done that when I was a design engineer and techs or contractors were the hands on gents who built what I thought was right at least lol. It goes with the territory but it was good hearted and fun bickering. In the long run I learned from them and they, likewise, learned a thing or two from me along the way.

Lets e mail sometime John T [email protected]



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Steve in N.J.

10-04-2005 04:09:34




Report to Moderator
 Re: wiring alternator in reply to george henson, 10-03-2005 21:19:03  
George,
If your choice for the charging chores is an Alternator, Alternators are designed for negative ground systems. The 6V system is positive ground and will not work. There are a couple choices you can make for Alternators also. The most popular would be the Delco 10SI series unit w/built-in regulator used all through the 80's on GM cars n' trucks. Some model tractors may need a bracket fabricated for alignment, but the unit works quite nicely to do the charging chores. When switching over to 12V's, we recommended you install 12V switches such as a headlight switch, Ignition etc. I also recommend retireing the Ammeter in lieu of a Voltmeter for more accuracy and safety. There's some other changes needed in the ignition system for your conversion too along with bulbs for the lighting. Give us a call, be happy to help you out with any info or items needed. Also Duey Schutter has a nice website with some easy to follow diagrams on 12V conversions. We can send also send you a cad diagram. We offer 12V conversion systems for different model AC tractors too. Steve@B&B

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Kent of SW MO

10-04-2005 06:31:21




Report to Moderator
 Re: wiring alternator in reply to Steve in N.J., 10-04-2005 04:09:34  
What is the safety issue replacing the amp. meter with a voltmeter. I hate voltmeter, unless you are talking a digital unit, for determining how well a charging system is funtioning. Most analog voltmeter DO NOT have the resolution needed in the 13.5 to 14.5 volt range to tell what the charing system is doing. Give me a dash mouted amp. meter any day over a voltmeter. If you are worried over the heavy current going throught the amp meter put in a shunt type but still run an amp meter. With an amp meter most any one can see a charging instantly when the meter goes to the negative side. With a voltmeter it can be sometime before a problem is seen. I think the reason for the change to voltmeter in cars and light trucks was to save the cost of the heavier wire and was explained as a "Safety" move.

Kent

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Kent of SW MO

10-05-2005 05:41:12




Report to Moderator
 Re: wiring alternator in reply to Kent of SW MO, 10-04-2005 06:31:21  
I would like to add to my rant that with a voltmeter most non-technical people would see 12 volts on the meter would think everything is "ok" because itia a 12 volt system. They DO NOT know that a 12 volt system when charging will read around the 14.4 volt range. Where as with an ampmeter, which is marked plus and minus with zero in the middle, they know immediatly something is wrong when the meter starts reading on the negative side when they normally see this meter on the positive side. This is of course assumming the meter is correctly connected. I have seen many ampmeter, which were add-ons, that were NOT connected in the circuit correctly. Most were connected in the output of the gen./alt. circuit instead of between the battery and all the electrical supplies and loads except the starting system.

Kent

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
John T

10-04-2005 07:30:48




Report to Moderator
 Re: wiring alternator in reply to Kent of SW MO, 10-04-2005 06:31:21  
Kent, I agree big time. An ammeter indicates BOTH a charge or discharge PLUS a fairly accurate indication of just how many amps. I see the VM as a cheaper easier substitute for Detroit to use and the marketing likely fooled n impressed the typical yuppie car buyers into thinking they got something New n Improved lol. I would, however, have to agree a low energy usage device with light gauge sensing wires as opposed to heavier main voltage source/feed wires up to the dash is a "tidbit" safer then ammeter wiring. BUT MANY SIMILAR WIRES TO SWITCHES ETC ARE ALREADY THERE ANYWAY, so its not all that big of a deal. Many tractors didnt even use fuse protection anyway since the relatively light gauge wiring served somewhat as a fusible link.

John T

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
old

10-03-2005 21:27:38




Report to Moderator
 Re: wiring alternator in reply to george henson, 10-03-2005 21:19:03  
Depends on how your doing it and what you use to get the 12 volt charge



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
[Options]  [Printer Friendly]  [Posting Help]  [Return to Forum]   [Log in to Reply]

Hop to:


TRACTOR PARTS TRACTOR MANUALS
We sell tractor parts!  We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today. [ About Us ]

Home  |  Forums


Copyright © 1997-2023 Yesterday's Tractor Co.

All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy

TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.

Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters

Website Accessibility Policy