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Allis Chalmers Discussion Forum
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update on my d-17 diesel

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BCnT

09-29-2005 13:39:40




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well i finally was able to run compression check today...looks like at the very least it blew head gasket between 4-5 cylinders...all the rest showing 250#+ compression...i wont know any more till weather cools off and i can make room in shop to tear it down.
i've heard all kinda tales about how finicky these heads are and people saying install gasket dry...i've always used copper coat on both sides of head gasket on every gas engine i've rebuilt and believe me...i've built 4-500 with no head gasket failures...i dont know caca about diesels tho so has anybody else used a copper based sealer with good results or any sealer for that matter.
another thing i've seen is a couple people say replace head bolts everytime you remove head...only time i ever did on gas motors was if they had evidence of stress cracks. i just want to know if anybody has actually re-used bolts with no problems.
thanx
chuck

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Butch(OH)

09-29-2005 15:21:01




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 Re: update on my d-17 diesel in reply to BCnT, 09-29-2005 13:39:40  
Gasket problems you heard about are not tales but fact. Problem areas are the perch areas in the block counterbores are not very wide. They rot away and the sleeves fall. Also there is no coolant circulation under the injectors and the energy cells. The heads start cracking there and proceed under the gasket fire rings and valve seats and I have seen one that had cracks all the way to the outside of the head (mine) No place for goo or sealers here. Succesfull installations thus require checks for proper sleeve protrusion and cracks. I believe the spec is flush to .005 stick out but check manual. Head needs to be checked for cracks that extend under the gasket fire ring and into the valve seat areas, these heads must be fixed. All are cracked under the cells and injectors but they can be installed and used in that condition. I too have used Copper Coat on head gaskets for years but several fellows who have much experience with the 6BD engines told me to spray head and block with brake clean and make sure both are absolutely dry and free of oils and to use nothing on the gasket or fire rings, which are separate pieces. If your engine has head studs with nuts go ahead and re use them, if you have bolts, some are reuasble, some not. I think the bolt problems were with the 262T used in the D-19 but not certain on that. Other problem area is this installation must be retorqued after engine is warmed up completely and after it has completely cooled down. It is a PITA because the rocker shaft and part of the water manifolding must be removed. People try to cheat this step and get nailed, as do the people who dont think sleeve stick out matters, as do the people who think some goop will fix head cracks. Fix problem areas, install dry, retorque, enjoy. Good luck.

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Dev Emch

09-30-2005 00:38:50




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 How come....? in reply to Butch(OH), 09-29-2005 15:21:01  
Butch...
You said that ALL the heads are cracked under the injectors and the energy cells? Some heads or ALL heads? Diesels are known for being reliable. Doen't this bid against the diesel as being a reliable and desireable?

Can a crack cause an energy cell to leak and make a poping sound? I have been meaning to replace one of my energy cells that is poping and now you have me scared silly! I can see the black soot showing through on the end cap of the energy cell. I thought this was just dirt and I needed to clean and relap the outer edge of the energy cell. What is your take on this this?

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Butch(OH)

09-30-2005 05:05:41




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 Re: How come....? in reply to Dev Emch, 09-30-2005 00:38:50  
I bleed orange but the 230-262 Buda diesels were as weak a motor as ever installed in a tractor. Improvments over the years made them better but the basic design had some serious flaws IMO. Link below should take you to my webshots page. The cracked head shown is from my WD45D and is typical of what a person finds when he removes the head from a 230 or 262 Buda. The cracks start directly under the injectors and energy cells and proceed outward. This particular head was cracked all the way out to the edge. Also note picture of removed energy cell, leakage is possible from two areas. The tapers on the outside of the cell seat in the head and can leak past. Also the retaining cap seals the end and they can leak there. If your is leaking from the cap that is easily lapped without removing the cell. If it is leaking from around the outside of the cell the seats need to be repaired, probably lapped also. Removing the cells can be a 14 carrot pain in the neck also. Notice tooling I made to remove mine. Recon heads, every one of them will be welded in some area, with new seats less valves and parts are a cool 1 grand per each with good core. and yes, when I said all heads are cracked, I meant it. Good luck with yours too.

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Dev Emch

10-01-2005 10:42:45




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 Butch... what would you suggest... in reply to Butch(OH), 09-30-2005 05:05:41  
Hi Butch...
Nice shots. So why do you think these heads are like this? What improvements would you suggest to remedy this from happening?

I make my own patterns and work on machine restoration work in my private time. If this becomes an issue, I will simply build a new set of patterns and core boxes and have a new head cast. So there is an opportunity to rememdy the design flaws by going down this path.

And I do have metal planers, metal shapers, milling machines and lathes including LeBlonds, Hardinge, Kearney trecker, Brown & Sharpe, Bridgeport, etc. So the machine work is not the issue. The new design and pattern work is the issue and does take time. But if its needed, well then, its needed.

Dev

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BCnT

09-29-2005 20:56:35




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 Re: update on my d-17 diesel in reply to Butch(OH), 09-29-2005 15:21:01  
i got a feeling i know why gasket blew...this tractor has no glow plugs and previous owner said he always used ether to start it first time each day...i may have give it too much...i usually stand on right hand side and push starter button and spray ether towards breather...thats only thing i can think of that caused problem.

anyhow when i get head off i'll have it magna fluxed and see whats what.
thanx for info

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CD

09-30-2005 05:49:58




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 Buying an Allis Chalmar in reply to BCnT, 09-29-2005 20:56:35  
My Finance and I bought 5 acres of nonfarmable property in SE Ohio and we've been looking to buy a tractor for maintenance of the brush. We have a chance to buy an Allis Chalmar CA Model from a guy that rebuilt it for $2,300. And to be honest we don't know anything about tractors. Can anyone help or advise? Greatly appreciated.
CD



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BCnT

09-30-2005 10:40:35




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 Re: Buying an Allis Chalmar in reply to CD, 09-30-2005 05:49:58  
seems high to me but price depends alot on area...i gave $2600. for my d17 diesel with a loader and 3 point conversion back in may and drove it about 25 miles home...it was in excellent running condition



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Ebbsspeed

09-30-2005 06:44:55




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 Re: Buying an Allis Chalmar in reply to CD, 09-30-2005 05:49:58  
CD, you may want to start a separate post, as you probably won't get too many responses to this one, hidden within another subject.



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CD

09-30-2005 08:19:31




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 Re: Buying an Allis Chalmar in reply to Ebbsspeed, 09-30-2005 06:44:55  
New to this posting thing. Thanks.



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