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Allis Chalmers Discussion Forum
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ok...who's the diesel specialist?

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BCnT

09-13-2005 11:24:33




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my latest toy went from purrin like a cadillac to a slight miss to a puffin noise thru exhaust [like a stuck valve noise,its not,i pulled valve cover]to belchin a cloud of raw fuel within a few minutes...its a '59 allis chalmers d-17 with tha 262 buda 6

its weird...all i did was start it up and move it into shade [doing some repairs on loader] its always been a pain to start without spraying some starting fluid towards snorkel [when its cold,starts rite up if its been run at all that day] once its running the only smoke i ever saw was just a hint of whitish blue...no black fuel smoke even under load...now its harder to start but it may be battery was low...i havent tried starting it since i charged battery

i'm thinkin [well,hopin] an injector stuck but i cant get that ka-ching ka-ching noise out of my ear

anybody? i got enuff experience with diesels to be dangerous

thanks
chuck

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PAUL BAXTER

09-13-2005 12:49:12




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 Re: ok...who's the diesel specialist? in reply to BCnT, 09-13-2005 11:24:33  
I would suspect an injector stuck open.



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BCnT

09-13-2005 15:23:38




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 thats kinda what i was thinkin earlier... in reply to PAUL BAXTER, 09-13-2005 12:49:12  
talked to a buddy of mine in tha navy and his Chief suggested mite be a clogged return line so i pulled the whole return line and blew it out from pump to tank...nuthin...i did turn motor over to try and pump some fuel out of returns on injectors in case any dirt got in and i didnt get anything...should there be any flow spinning engine over with starter?

the hard starting prob seems to have eased up with an overnite charge on battery but it still running real rich.

ok,i've got a manual but i'm not real sure if i understand injector removal procedure...once i remove lines and the 2 nuts holding housing the injector should come out??? or do i need a special puller?
thanx

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Texas Denny

09-13-2005 20:02:19




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 Re: thats kinda what i was thinkin earlier... in reply to BCnT, 09-13-2005 15:23:38  
The return line is to return any leakage in the injector. It is good to not have flow in this line. Continuous flow would be very bad. The two bolts are removed to remove the injector. They should come out without any trouble. I got some diamond abrasive paste and lapped my injectors (as described in the IT manual) and was happy with the result.

I had a miss and no real clatter that turned out to be a sticking valve. I dumped in a quart of automatic transmission fluid in a half tank of fuel. That plus a new thermostat eventually got the valve loosened.

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BCnT

09-13-2005 21:16:31




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 well,i didnt get the IT manual...got a copy of ori in reply to Texas Denny, 09-13-2005 20:02:19  
does it allow you to remove needle without losing pressure setting? i dont have the tooling to reset pressure so i was thinking of rebuilt injectors if i cant get needle free with non enviornmentally friendly carb cleaner.
thanx



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Texas Denny

09-14-2005 06:02:23




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 Re: well,i didnt get the IT manual...got a copy of in reply to BCnT, 09-13-2005 21:16:31  
I don't understand your question. There is pressure only when the injector pump puts it there. There is no pressure when you are disassembling and refurbishing. The lapping is to clean the seating area. The injector is spring loaded to force pressure to build to a predetermined level before opening to spray into the cylinder. Cleaning and refurbishing reduces dribble (small amount of fuel that bypasses the seat while pressure is building and when there is minimal pressure.

Cleaning is a good thing and might help substantially. If you are uncomfortable with the lapping, try cleaning completely first and then if you still have troubles, rebuilts are in order. A caution is that if you decide on cleaning, you must do an absolutely impecable job. Injectors don't like even a little dirt and grit.

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BCnT

09-14-2005 07:12:02




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 oh yeah,1 other thing in reply to Texas Denny, 09-14-2005 06:02:23  
when i pulled the return lines to check for blockage i noticed 2-3 flares were cracked. i dont suppose that line is available anymore? i was thinking brass hose barbs and tee's with rubber fuel hose as a replacement.any problem with using that?
thanx



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Texas Denny

09-14-2005 11:48:20




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 Re: oh yeah,1 other thing in reply to BCnT, 09-14-2005 07:12:02  
Mine leaked at all connections because they hadn't used seamless tubing - they leaked at the seams. I got soft copper seamless and new tees and fittings for compression fittings and replumbed the whole thing. Cost was my driver. I believe these lines may still be available from Allis as I got some other parts from them. If they aren't, I'd use copper. With soft copper, it could be done with a flare system as well. I guess fuel hose line would work if it is rated for diesel fuel. It isn't high pressure. But hose may eventually degrade and I'd be concerned about the breakdown of the materials getting into the system and causing problems.

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BCnT

09-14-2005 07:03:47




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 ok,i thought... in reply to Texas Denny, 09-14-2005 06:02:23  
the spring tension was adjustable on the needle and if i took it apart to clean i'd need special tools to reset tension...youre saying clean it,crank cup back down over spring and i'm good to go?
sorry for all the questions but until i've actually done the work i have a hard time understanding manuals.believe it or not i'm a ford certified mechanic...not on diesels tho lol
thanx



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Texas Denny

09-14-2005 12:14:29




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 Re: ok,i thought... in reply to BCnT, 09-14-2005 07:03:47  
This was nearly 10 years ago that I went through these things. I've been studying the D-17 IT manual and trying to remember how I did it. I know I used those two pages (44 and 45) as my guide. But I cannot remember adjusting the spring tension. The diagram looks like the the entire spring tension unit can be removed without removing the adjustment or tampering with its current setting. And it appears that the surfaces that could use cleaning can be removed without taking the spring system out. That, however, seems like the wrong thing to do as you'd be turn the mating surfaces with the spring tension on them which Would be bad. I may have marked where the adjusting nut is and simply returned it to its previous position. That seems like the smartest move to me.

The manual is very negative on using any kind of abrasive paste for the cleaning and recommend using tallow and a stick. I know I used a stick but I didn't use tallow. Pretty sure I used a very fine grade of diamond grit paste. I rubbed only until everything was shiny. Then I reassembled.

I may have felt desperate and just did what I could afford at the time. As I reread all of the manual, it appears I went outside of recommendation in my cleaning. So If you follow what I did, You'll be doing it at your own risk. I did it because if my cleaning didn't work, I wasn't out much because I'd be buying new (rebuilt) anyhow. As it was, I was very careful and it has worked for the last 10 years flawlessly.

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BCnT

09-14-2005 22:45:28




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 IT musta copied page... in reply to Texas Denny, 09-14-2005 12:14:29  
i got same instructions in my copy of original...think i'm gonna pull all injectors tomorrow and see what i got...theres a indy dealer in town thats got a test bench and set up to clean/repair if i get in over my head.
appreciate your time/experience
chuck



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Texas Denny

09-15-2005 06:47:27




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 Re: IT musta copied page... in reply to BCnT, 09-14-2005 22:45:28  
Good luck. I just re-read your original post (probably the 5th time). I still think the issue is valves and not injectors. When you get the injectors out, take a compression check. See if all cylinders are about the same.

And maybe there is something the matter with your fuel. I can't imagine dirty injectors causing the trouble you describe. A small amount of gasoline mixed with diesel would cause all the noises you describe. I'd drain your tank, put in new fuel. Drain the filters and replace them and bleed the system. Then start it and see where you are.

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