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Allis Chalmers Discussion Forum
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Adding Hydraulic pump to Allis B

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osufans

06-07-2005 13:37:16




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I"ve been reading over where you can convert the standard drawbar to 3pt, but you need to add hydraulics back to the tractor if they are not present. My father-in-law has a model B he may be willing to sell, but I want to know how involved it would be to add hydraulics to the tractor so I can use standard implements. Thanks for any info.




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D13

06-08-2005 03:09:22




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 Re: Adding Hydraulic pump to Allis B in reply to osufans, 06-07-2005 13:37:16  
One of mine has a GM power steering pump hung on the side, using a double pulley on the alternator and a fabbed bracket hooked to the alternator mount. I'm seriously considering adding a front pump to another, or perhaps one run off the belt pulley (which I never use).



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Rod (NH)

06-07-2005 15:48:13




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 Re: Adding Hydraulic pump to Allis B in reply to osufans, 06-07-2005 13:37:16  
Hi,

On the hydraulics: My '42B doesn't have hydraulics and I have been thinking about adding that capability for some time now. However it's not a high priority for me and I have yet to do it. In any event, the following is what I think you need to consider.

1. You need to have a power take-off assembly installed because that is what the stock hydraulic pump mounts to.
2. That PTO assembly must have the access opening to mount the stock pump. Mine has the opening but it is covered by a simple blocking plate.
3. The splined PTO shaft must have the cam lobes on it to drive the pump. I don't know if mine has the lobes or not as I have never looked. I don't believe the early shafts had the lobes.
4. Tractors supplied with hydraulic pumps used a special gasket between the PTO asembly and the trans/diff housing. The PTO drive, the trans and the diff gears and bearings all are lubricated from the same reservoir. When you add a stock hydraulic pump, it also uses the exact same lubricant from the same reservoir as the working fluid. The special gasket, in addition to sealing the joint between the PTO and diff housing, also provides a partial barrier between the PTO and trans/diff areas. The barrier served to limit the quantity of oil that could be extracted by the hydraulic pump so that it would not starve the trans/diff area of lubricant.
5. Tractors w/o hydraulics used SAE 90 or 140 gear oil, per spec, depending on ambient temperature, for lube of the trans/diff and PTO. This oil would be way to heavy for a hydraulic sys. If that is your case, the entire reservoir (all sections) should be drained, flushed out and an SAE 20 oil, per spec, (or something equivalent) installed.
6. The above thoughts are for adding the standard AC hydraulic pump. There are other, arguably better, ways of adding hydraulics to a B but all involve some custom fabrication and more complex plumbing. One would be to drive a separate pump directly off the crankshaft. This would provide live hydraulics whereas the standard AC pump only works when the PTO is engaged. I have also heard of adding a hydraulic pump to be driven off the belt pulley portion of the PTO assy but that arrangement would also require the PTO to be engaged in order to have operable hydraulics. Of course you could also use the splined PTO shaft to drive a pump if you were not going to use it for anything else. Any of these non-standard methods would require a separate reservoir, relief valve, control valve(s) and extra plumbing that are not needed with the stock AC design, in addition to custom mounting arrangements. They could however, permit the use of double acting cylinders where the AC stock design does not.

third party image Rod

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souNdguy

06-08-2005 11:29:56




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 Re: Adding Hydraulic pump to Allis B in reply to Rod (NH), 06-07-2005 15:48:13  
Is the factory pump not able to pump the 90wt oil? Ford N series belly pumps sit in the diffy area and are run by the pto shaft.. trans, diffy and scotch yoke pump share the 90wt gear oil.. pump works great.. ford had them that way from 1939-1952... 1700 psi / 2.89gpm.

Soundguy



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Rod (NH)

06-08-2005 16:39:30




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 Re: Adding Hydraulic pump to Allis B in reply to souNdguy, 06-08-2005 11:29:56  
That's the first I've heard of that heavy an oil used in a hydraulic system. AC recommends SAE 20W for the B. That pump has a short suction lift feeding cam-driven pistons. The early recommendations from AC (before hydraulics) were 90 if below 32 deg F and 140 above. That's for the trans, diff and PTO - no hyd. Same for the final drives. The 140 in a hydraulic pump would be like trying to suck molasses through a straw unless real hot. I would expect the 90 would be tough also at zero deg F but I have never tried it. I suppose it could work if the conditions were right. Like a flooded suction with no lift, no strainer, warm temps and large suction openings. I guess the low flow rate would help also. The hydraulic system on my Oliver uses standard SAE 10W hydraulic oil. That's pretty much universal for most hydraulic systems as far as I know. I wouldn't think of using anything heavier in it. But that's a lot different system.

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souNdguy

06-09-2005 05:18:31




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 Re: Adding Hydraulic pump to Allis B in reply to Rod (NH), 06-08-2005 16:39:30  
Yep.. the ford systems were designed that way.. specifically for 80w or 90w oil, 80w if real cold. In any case.. the oil will take a couple minutes to warm up.. but it's not bad.

The pump is mounted int he belly of the N, forward of the diffy, aft of the tranny. Pto shaft runs thru the pump, and the pump is driven of a lobe on the pto shaft. Suction point is emersed in the sump, and there is virtually no inlet straining.

The heavy oil is good for one thing though... the system has to be totally worn out, or very leaky before your hyds give out. NH now specs UTF as a retrofit for the oldies.. but we find than in a worn system.. that thin oil doesn't perform as good. If the system is average or better.. or rebuilt.. the thinner oil seems fine... except the pump knocks a bit more.

Soundguy

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CH

06-08-2005 18:50:20




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 Re: Adding Hydraulic pump to Allis B in reply to Rod (NH), 06-08-2005 16:39:30  
Hi Rod,
I think the 90W he's talking about is mineral oil like the older Masseys used. Not as thick as petro oil.



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steve(ill)

06-07-2005 20:09:51




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 Re: Adding Hydraulic pump to Allis B in reply to Rod (NH), 06-07-2005 15:48:13  
you can buy the allis pump on e-bay or from "used parts" vendors for $100 or less. look at the right side of pto housing in the back. there is a 1/8 inch plate about 4 x 4 inches with a bolt in each corner. you put the pump here. like Ro said, take the plate off and make sure the cam shaft is inside, most are. takes about an hour to install.



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