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NAPA 1101 Oil Filter

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Rod (NH)

07-10-2003 16:47:16

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My thoughts on the oil filter issue relative to my '42B.

Rod

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AC in MI.

07-12-2003 20:34:01

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Re: NAPA 1101 Oil Filter in reply to Rod (NH), 07-10-2003 16:47:16

I think some are missing the mark on the oil pressure filter thing..the oil pressure that is read on these B and C engines is not relative to the actual pressure going to the camshaft and then to the bearings.. only 1/6 of the volume of the pump is going to the oil filter, head and govenor, by way of a tee fitting off the pump, and up through external plumbing...the restiction of the filter DOES make a difference in the READING of the oil pressure gauge because the oil gauge is in this external oil curcuit, the more restiction , the less (readable) pressure...5/6 of the volume is going directly to the cam and internal bearings, and there in no way to read this pressure ( in other words the oil pressure gauge is mounted in a lousy spot)...the oil pump relief spring is supposed to by-pass at 15lbs., there-fore always delivering around 14-15lbs to the internals of the engine, reguardless of what the pressure gauge reads....a serious resriction in the oil filter would starve the head and governor only

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steve

07-13-2003 05:56:08

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Re: Re: NAPA 1101 Oil Filter in reply to AC in MI., 07-12-2003 20:34:01

if you install a full flow filter or remove the 1/4 inch tube from the filter, you will get 50%of the flow thru the filter to sump and not 15%. this will result in the internal pressure dropping well below 14 psi, possibly down to 5-6 psi. The internal relief at 15 psi will never open with reduced flow to it. This can definitly cause problems with the crank and rod bearings. The gauge is in the wrong place, but it does give a good indication of what is going on.

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AC in MI.

07-13-2003 10:01:29

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Re: Re: Re: NAPA 1101 Oil Filter in reply to steve, 07-13-2003 05:56:08

that may be true, but remember the discussion is about low gauge readings after installing an oil filter, and low gauge reading means (because of where the gauge is) higher oil resrictions in the oil line going to the oil filter, head and governor....according to ALLIS CHALMERS "as long as the resistence in this oil line is below 15lbs oil will flow to the head and governor"...and if the oil filter resistence is higher to the head, and governor more oil will be going to the cam, and main bearings ( the rod bearing are not pressure oiled, they are fed through oil holes drilled in the cam that sprays oil on the big ends of the rods, the rod are drilled with funneled holes that the oil can just run in)...also, any oil that goes past the oil pump pressure relief valve is (and i quote AC) "when the oil relief valve is open the extra oil passing the valve is discharged into the camshaft and augments the supply through the camshaft metering holes. Under normal operation the bypass valve is nearly always open as the pump is capable of creating more than 15lbs. pressure"...So here's my bottom line, if you put on a more restrictive oil filter, the gauge will show a drop in (readable) pressure, but more oil will be going to the cam , main bearings and spraying on the rod bearings...If the gauge is reading (any,whithin reason)pressure than you are getting enough oil to the head (rocker arm assembly), and the governor and timing gears...less oil to the top end means more oil to the bottom, just ask any chevy oval track racer why they resrict oil to to the top...but remember the chevy gauge reads off the main oil galley, unlike an old AC

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steve

07-13-2003 18:36:08

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Re: Re: Re: Re: NAPA 1101 Oil Filter in reply to AC in MI., 07-13-2003 10:01:29

you need to get out a print of the oil circuit. a non restrictive filter will dump too much oil to sump, stealing all the oil from the rocker arms and valve train. It will also reduce the internal flow to the bearings, mains and rods. it is especially bad to use one of these full flow filters on an old engine that has a poor oil pumpand excess clearances to start with. Rods summary is right on track. If his motor had been old and worn, he could have lost top end lube all together.

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ShepFL

07-12-2003 18:50:50

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Re: NAPA 1101 Oil Filter in reply to Rod (NH), 07-10-2003 16:47:16

Thanks Rod for the excellent work and informative article. This has really got me thinking about my Oliver. I recently changed oil and filter and have been experiencing low pressure. Troubleshooting has lead me to the filter but I thought, Nay, same filter I have always used.

On this filter you discussed it is obvious the NAPA engineers goofed. Thanks again, enjoy your posts. Will be cutting filters apart tomorrow.

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Terry

07-12-2003 06:00:01

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Re: NAPA 1101 Oil Filter in reply to Rod (NH), 07-10-2003 16:47:16

Thanks Rod. You saved a lot of confuusion. Good work! Terry

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Dave K

07-11-2003 16:05:47

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Re: NAPA 1101 Oil Filter in reply to Rod (NH), 07-10-2003 16:47:16

AGCO is aware of newer filter problems and does provide the right filters for the older tractors. They did have a recall for a little while when the first new filters got in the field but what I get from them now work just fine. Wish they would paint them orange though!

Dave

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Bob

07-11-2003 13:44:41

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Re: NAPA 1101 Oil Filter in reply to Rod (NH), 07-10-2003 16:47:16

Make sure the riser tube from the filter base is still intact. I have seen tractors and Wisconsin engines using this type of filter where the tube has become dislodged from the base and lost... probably thrown away with an old oil filter?

I think the upper end of the riser tube is narrowed down to a small hole to provide built-in restriction to the flow of oil into the filter. Could any of these have been messed with... drilled out, etc., which would cause excess oil to be fed to the filter? Does anyone know what the original size oriface was?

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RAB

07-11-2003 23:16:56

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Re: Re: NAPA 1101 Oil Filter in reply to Bob, 07-11-2003 13:44:41

Yes,Bob, they may have been, but I would not understand why.
All the same, The work Rod did was specifically avoiding any other change than the filter. Pretty damning on the manufacturer, who I would think, had perhaps better put right their mistake before blown engine repair bills start dropping in with their mail or they lose their market share, as these reports can have that effect.
Regards, RAB

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B runner

07-11-2003 09:10:18

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Re: NAPA 1101 Oil Filter in reply to Rod (NH), 07-10-2003 16:47:16

on my '47 B I use the AC C412. I order it through NAPA locally. My local implement dealer was looking at my B yesterday on another matter and commented that I have good oil pressure. I run 30w oil and my gauge runs almosat dead center. There is no scale on my gauge.

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mhmalcolm

07-11-2003 06:17:00

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Re: NAPA 1101 Oil Filter in reply to Rod (NH), 07-10-2003 16:47:16

Just another thought. It could be possible that the restriction of the old filter on these worn engines is so high that it could be enough to stop any oil from actually getting through the filter, resulting in NO filtered oil getting back to the engine. Just another 2 cents.

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mhmalcolm

07-11-2003 06:11:39

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Re: NAPA 1101 Oil Filter in reply to Rod (NH), 07-10-2003 16:47:16

I've been thinking about the conclusion you came to on the new NAPA filter. Since the filtration system on these engines is the "bypass" type, meaning the only oil that goes through the filter is oil that has bypassed the relief valve, the real cause of the low oil pressure is wear in the engine components or oil pump. However it is true that the old style filter design was more dense than the new style, creating an additional restriction and causing an increase in oil pressure. The thing is, you are probably still getting the same volume of oil flow through the engine components with the new filter as you would with the old filter, just at a lower pressure. I know I have seen engines with lubrication systems of this type with components so worn that NO oil is bypassed by the relief valve because the system pressure is so low, which means that absolutely no oil goes to the filter. On a worn engine, the old style filter would get the oil pressure up, but I am wondering if you are really getting any less volume of oil to the bearings. I am interested in knowing anybody else's thoughts on this. Maybe I am wacky. By the way, I have never been a fan of NAPA filters. I have cut them apart and compared them to other brands, such as Fleetguard (the company that is owned by Cummins to produce filters for their engines and other applications)and they just don't measure up. They don't have as many pleats in the filter paper resulting in less filtration area, the ends of the filter media paper are glued together instead of using a crimped metal strip, and they use a bypass system that can actually allow unfiltered oil to go to the engine even if the bypass pressure hasn't been reached. So I am not defending NAPA filters.

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RAB

07-11-2003 10:55:38

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Re: Re: NAPA 1101 Oil Filter in reply to mhmalcolm, 07-11-2003 06:11:39

NO. Bypass does not mean oil going through the engine oil pump pressure relief valve.
It means oil is taken from the main pressure gallery and bypasses the bearings, being filtered on the way back to the sump.
This is the problem - too much of the oil pump output is being filtered.
The oil pressure relief valve also passes oil back to the sump, but it is not filtered. This protects the bearings from excessive oil pressure and the oil pump from mechanical overload, while maintaining an adequate pressure in the oil gallery.
Regards, RAB

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Todd in NC

07-11-2003 07:30:16

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Re: Re: NAPA 1101 Oil Filter in reply to mhmalcolm, 07-11-2003 06:11:39

I agree, worn lubrication systems can change oil pressure readings. But, I have a 1955 CA that the engine was just rebuilt a few years ago and had the same problem when I changed the oil 2 weeks ago. The oil pressure dropped dramatically. What I did to fix the problem is use a Purolator L30007 filter. This brought the pressure back to approximatley 18 pounds (cold) and 14 pounds (hot). Also, if there are any Oliver users reading this, the Oliver 66 uses a similar filter. If they changed one they changed the other. The manufacturer has had many complaints about this (including mine). I guess my dad was right when always said " Boy, if it ain't broke, don't fix it!" Newer is not always better. Just my 2 cents worth.

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Larry from MD

07-11-2003 09:19:22

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Re: Re: Re: NAPA 1101 Oil Filter in reply to Todd in NC, 07-11-2003 07:30:16

The oliver 66 uses a restricter in the base, so the filter doesn't make much differance.

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Bob D. (La)

07-11-2003 03:00:19

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Re: NAPA 1101 Oil Filter in reply to Rod (NH), 07-10-2003 16:47:16

Thanks Rod. I agree with you wholeheartedly. And yes, NAPA has lost a customer in me also. They need to get their engineers back to work and correct this problem.Bob D. (La)

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Ken/Wa

07-10-2003 20:08:24

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Re: NAPA 1101 Oil Filter in reply to Rod (NH), 07-10-2003 16:47:16

I have two Agco filters for my B on the shelf, I hope they are making theirs' right. Great work on making us aware of what we are putting on our tractors. Thanks

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steve

07-10-2003 19:05:34

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Re: NAPA 1101 Oil Filter in reply to Rod (NH), 07-10-2003 16:47:16

excellent work Rod. Think it is obvious the original filter is a bypass type and the new is modeled after a full flow automotive filter. somebody goofed.

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AC in SC

07-10-2003 18:20:20

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Re: NAPA 1101 Oil Filter in reply to Rod (NH), 07-10-2003 16:47:16

I'm impressed, Rod. Need to change oil and filter in our D-15. Already have two filters, one Napa and one Wix. I'll be sure to take a look at the old filter and check oil pressure. Thanks.

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