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AC Model C- NEED HELP!!

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Bob

08-26-2002 18:47:44




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I have a 1947 'C' and I have had the engine rebuilt and it was running great as my lawnmower until last week, it died in the middle of the yard. It didn't seem to be getting any fire. It has always started instantly. I took the mag in and had it rebuilt, new coil, etc. after reinstalling it, I can't seem to get it to start again. I am following the old shop manual with the alignment of the flywheel, etc, no luck. The Grass is getting out of hand. HELP !!

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Duey (IA)

08-27-2002 09:30:37




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 Re: AC Model C- NEED HELP!! in reply to Bob, 08-26-2002 18:47:44  
Bob,
Here are a few things to check out. First remove the wire from the switch at the mag (could be a bad switch-also check the little strap on this connection, if there is one, and see that it is not grounded) and see if you now have spark.
If not, next remove the mag and clamp the flange in a vise as this easier than cranking and stretching etc. Remove the 4 screw cap and very carefully check the points. (Even a oily fingerprint can stop the low voltage from going through the points.) Clamp a visegrip on the drive lug to turn it over. When the impulse lets go, you should see a spark between the points. If you don't, you are either losing the spark to ground, like the condenser connection touching or a field wire shorted out or the points are not adjusted to .020 gap or they are burned or dirty. (The points actually ground the spark, generated by the armature and fields through the coil. This low voltage passing through the coil, causes an induced high voltage surge that goes to the sparkplug.)
Soooo, if you have the low voltage timed right and the rotor is at the correct lug, at the correct time with the camshaft, you have "Fire in the Hole". Now, if you have the spark at the points and don't have spark at the plug, when everything is assembled, it could be out of time, a bad coil or condenser, possibly a cracked cap, or shorted out rotor. A shorted cap or rotor can have what appears to be a crack where the spark goes to ground. . Now, the internal gears need to be timed. In the large cap line the C mark on the fiber gear with the marked tooth on the steel gear. Tip- turn the engine backwards to get the steel gear tooth to stop straight up and position the C mark on the fiber gear straight down. This times the rotor to the points. Duey

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Bob

08-27-2002 17:42:21




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 Re: Re: AC Model C- NEED HELP!! in reply to Duey (IA), 08-27-2002 09:30:37  
To Steve and Huey; All I can say is that they should have a book with the information you two have supplied to me in less than 24 hrs. This is more info than the old shop manual has. I think the folks writing these manuals assume you know certain things and of course, I don't !

Thanks again, I'll let you know how I come out shortly. I disconnected the small wire on the side of the Mag and sure enough, I HAVE FIRE....!

Now it's on to the timing and carb stuff.....

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Steve in N.J.

08-27-2002 20:42:30




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 Re: Re: Re: AC Model C- NEED HELP!! in reply to Bob, 08-27-2002 17:42:21  
Bob,
My Pleasure! Glad to hear you got her goin' again!
The site is a great site to learn from, especially from fellows like Duey and the rest of the AC gang! I learned a lot myself over the past couple years!!
Steve B.



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Bob

08-27-2002 20:33:35




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 Re: Re: Re: AC Model C- NEED HELP!! in reply to Bob, 08-27-2002 17:42:21  
Well, here we go again. I used my son's mower to do the mowing. We've practically no rain all summer and wouldn't you know when we get some heavy rains for a couple of weeks, the AC mower goes kapute. Oh well, I still love this machine.

Well, I did everything you said Huey, (I think) and I am getting fire at the plugs. I put the mag on the vise and turned the lug as you said. Great fire at the points. They are set at .020. I even cleaned them. Then I checked for the alignment marks on the two gears. Well, I think I got them right, the steel gear has a pall opening. Is this the right mark? It's the only one I can find. On the fiber gear, the only mark that looks like a "C" mark is in the center, and looks like a snap ring with the opening being the mark area. I lined that one straight down and the steel one straight up. Then you mentioned that I "Tip-turn the engine backwards" to get the steel gear tooth straight up. I don't know what you mean when you say "Tip-turn the engine backwards". I took the steel gear and turned it so it was up and turned the fiber gear down and then connected the unit together with the 4 screws.

Also I know that the firing order is 1-2-4-3. I think I am lining the wires correctly, they are in that order. As I am in the seat, facing the magneto cover, there is a hump on the cover that houses a brass rod inside the mag. I believe that the #l contact is to the left of that hump and #2 is to the right of the hump as I sit in the seat. Is that right?

Also, when the tractor wouldn't start after I put everything back together according to your note, I removed the complete mag unit, then turned the lug unit on the back of the mag 180 degrees and tried it again. Still no luck.

I wish I knew more about this mag, but I don't so I reach out to you who apparently do.

Thanks for any assistance.

P.S. The grass is probably good for another week now. Also, there is a big antique tractor show this coming weekend around here, so anyone who knows anything about these old tractors are working their own, so it is impossible to get them.

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Duey (IA)

08-28-2002 17:49:35




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: AC Model C- NEED HELP!! in reply to Bob, 08-27-2002 20:33:35  
Bob,
If you have the gears timed correctly, then you may have to check the timing. Remove the small cap and wires to expose the rotor.
--- The left side of the engine has a hole in the bell housing where you can see the timing mark on the flywheel.("B"&"C") The FIRE mark and the TDC mark are located on the flywheel through this hole. Use a little light colored paint to make seeing them much easier). --- Take out the #1 spark plug, and put your thumb over the hole while hand cranking the engine, the cylinder will force air past your finger on the compression stroke. (The other FIRE is the exhaust stroke and has the exhaust valves open so no air will come out of the plug hole).
--- When you feel the air coming past your thumb, look for the FIRE mark on the flywheel. (you may want a friend to help with this). When this mark is centered in the hole, the rotor on the mag should be just lower than the #1 lug on the mag. Looking at it as a clock, #1 lug should be near 10:00. Just before the lug is a plastic stud called the timing stud. Perfect timing is when the rotor points to the timing stud while the FIRE mark on the flywheel is centered in the hole. --- If your rotor points to 5:00 your mag is 180 degrees off and needs to be removed and the coupling turned till you achieve 10:00. If it is not right on the timing stud, you can loosen the mag and rotate it until it is. 6. Put it all back together and time your spark plug wires 1-2-4-3 clockwise on the magneto cap. Duey

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Bob

08-29-2002 07:51:42




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: AC Model C- NEED HELP!! in reply to Duey (IA), 08-28-2002 17:49:35  
Thanks again Duey (spelled it right this time, sorry). I did as you instructed. There two marks on the flywheel, the first one has the letter (R) on it, then there is another mark that doesn't appear to have any letter on it. I lined the mag fiber gear up and the rotor as you said and still got no start. Again there is no letter "C" on the fiber gear. Then each time, I would turn the bell housing on the mag base ( maybe it's a drum, (the one with the two big teeth) and try again, still nothing. Then I went back to the flywheel andlined one of the other marks up and tried the same procedure, and still no luck.

However, one time, I got a loud Backfire, only one, indicating to me that there is "fire" and "fuel", am I right? I don't think I have a fire problem. Probably just with the timing.

I am also going to look for a needle and seat for the carb. I think it is also probably over due.

In the beginning of your latest letter you indicated that as long as I had the gears (which ones?) lined up, I would need to go to the timing.
I think your procedure for timing will probably work if all else is operable.

The engine was rebuilt a year ago, so nothing is bad there. Were you referring to the timing gear and chain in the engine at the beginning of your letter?

Hope this makes my position better understandable.

Still working on it, Bob in NW Ohio.

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Duey (IA)

08-29-2002 10:41:05




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: AC Model C- NEED HELP!! in reply to Bob, 08-29-2002 07:51:42  
Bob,
When you are cranking it - from the front- clockwise- the first mark should be the advance Fire mark. The next mark, just a little ways behind the first, will be TDC (Top dead center) Also there is no timing chain, just gears. The gears I was talking about are the fiber and steel gears inside the mag. (The mag should be type FMJ) My guess is these are still not aligned properly. The steel gear has one tooth with the end ground off and the fiber gear should have a plastic circle with A & C marks on. If yours doesn't have these marks then align the fiber gear as follows. With the rotor in place, turn it so the top edge of the rotor contact is even with the bottom edge of the timing lug. The gap between two teeth will now be straight down. Mark the gap as "C". This is where the marked steel gear tooth should mesh into. If all else fails E-Mail me and I'll see if I can send a picture or two. (worth a thousand words or so.) Duey

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Steve in N.J.

08-28-2002 05:59:12




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: AC Model C- NEED HELP!! in reply to Bob, 08-27-2002 20:33:35  
Bob,
You may not have the mag timed correctly. I know on my B I had a heck of a time trying to find the "C" mark on the fiber gear! I had my "Cheaters" on looking through a magnifing glass holding a droplite and just bearly saw it. I drew a straight line on the gear down from where the "C" was with a felt tip marker so I knew where the darn thing was next time I had the mag out. The steel gear has a little "dog ear" on the edge of it. That's the one ya line up with the "C". I just redid a mag for a customer of mine and the "C" on that fiber gear was clear as a bell. Here, I'm pullin' what hair I have left out of my head to find it on mine! Hang in there, you'll get it! I'm sure Duey will get you goin' again and she'll be purrin' like a kitten again. If you need a new mag switch, I have them in stock...Good Luck! Oh yeah, check to make sure the snap coupler is working. Some of the fellows say they go to sometimes. Grab the "bell on the back of the mag, turn it 360 degrees and see if she makes a "snap". If it does, she's a workin..... Steve B.

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Bob

09-03-2002 06:43:16




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: AC Model C- NEED HELP!! in reply to Steve in N.J., 08-28-2002 05:59:12  
Thanks a great deal to Duey & Steve.

I got the old 1947 AC "C" running again. Duey, those photos were all it finally took as there was no marking on the fiber gear at all. Your accompanying letter was the final point to getting it running. I am now going to have to install a carb kit, as the old one looks bad and is in nead of a rebuild kit. The "C": has a slightly sluggish run that it did not have before. Every thing in the mag is apparently lined up and it started right up. What would I have done without your help?

Thanks again!!

Bob in Oak Harbor, Ohio

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Steve in N.J.

08-26-2002 22:00:50




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 Re: AC Model C- NEED HELP!! in reply to Bob, 08-26-2002 18:47:44  
Bob,
As the old saying goes, ya need spark and fuel to make an engine run. Pull a spark plug wire and see if you can see spark to the plug while she's cranking. If you do, you may have a fuel problem. If you don't see spark, just for the heck of it, disconnect the mag kill wire and see if it'll fire up. If it does, there's yer' culprit! That's a start anyway. (no pun intended) I'm sure some of the other fellows can give you some valuable info also to help ya out..... . Steve B.

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