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C outta time

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SEMOREDNECK

08-15-2001 07:40:06




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I have a 49 C that seems to have jumped time. I dont understand how it could have without bustin a tooth on a gear somewhere. Anybody ever have similar problems? It makes no noise when it is running, but does not sound right and has no power. I timed the mag, but you cannot set it up right to fire when the firin mark is showning. Any suggestions?

Thanks,
Semo




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Duey (IA)

08-15-2001 20:27:25




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 Re: C outta time in reply to SEMOREDNECK, 08-15-2001 07:40:06  
Timing a mag.
1. If you have taken the Mag. apart, the internal gears need to be timed. (Set points at .020)
2. Remove the large cap and line the C mark on the fiber gear with the marked tooth on the steel gear. Tip- turn the engine backwards to get the steel gear tooth to stop straight up and position the C mark on the fiber gear straight down. This times the rotor to the points. It is pretty simple in theory. Like all four cycles, the piston comes to TDC (top dead center) twice for every time the magneto or distributor rotor goes around. The left side of the engine has a hole in the bell housing where you can see the timing mark on the flywheel.("B"&"C") ("WD" &" WD45" The timing mark is found by looking under the flywheel housing for a small hole possibly covered by a small plate held with two wing bolts. The FIRE mark and the TDC mark are located on the flywheel through this hole. Use a little light colored paint to make seeing them much easier). 3. Take out the #1 spark plug, and put your thumb over the hole while hand cranking the engine(best to have all the plug wires off while doing this so the tractor doesn't try to fire) , the cylinder will force air past your finger on the compression stroke. (The other FIRE is the exhaust stroke and has the exhaust valves open so no air will come out of the plug hole).
4. When you feel the air coming past your thumb, look for the FIRE mark on the flywheel. When this mark is centered in the hole, the rotor on the mag should be just lower than the #1 lug on the mag. Looking at it as a clock, #1 lug should be near 10:00. Just before the lug is a plastic stud called the timing stud. Perfect timing is when the rotor points to the timing stud while the FIRE mark on the flywheel is centered in the hole. 5. If your rotor points to 5:00 your mag is 180 degrees off and needs to be removed and the coupling turned till you achieve 10:00. If it is not right on the timing stud, you can loosen the mag and rotate it until it is. 7. Put it all back together and time your spark plug wires 1-2-4-3 clockwise on the magneto cap.


The magneto is a self generating ignition system. Inside there is an armature and field magnets just like a generator. The armature/field generates the low voltage required by the internal coil that steps up the voltage for the spark plugs. The coil, points and condenser and rotor are all inside the magneto and operate without any outside wires or voltage. The only wire required is to short out this system to stop the engine. The magneto also has an impulse start mechanism that stops the armature from turning momentarily and then clicks loudly when it lets go. This does two things. One it retards the spark so it does not kick back and two, when it lets go, the armature spins fast enough to generate the low voltage required for getting a spark when hand cranked very slow.
Maybe this will explain what to do. Duey

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SemoRedneck

08-16-2001 05:09:56




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 Re: Re: C outta time in reply to Duey (IA), 08-15-2001 20:27:25  
Thanks fer the Post..Appreciate the info...unfortuneatly I have already done all of those things. I am at the point now when #1 is at TDC the plate in the Govenor that the mag sets in is in a position that I cannot set the mag just ready to fire. The only way it will go in is having just fired which is wrong, and there is no way to move the rotor as it is right on the shaft that breaks the points and has no ajustments like the other style mags(as you where describing above). I was just curious if there was any know issue with that model engine with the timing that might give me insight. I really think the internal timing is off. BTW I got so flustrated I have a mechanic look at it. He came to the same conclusion I did. Thanks again - SEMO

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Duey (IA)

08-16-2001 05:45:04




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 Re: Re: Re: C outta time in reply to SemoRedneck, 08-16-2001 05:09:56  
SemoRedneck,
The position of the slot that drives the mag can be changed by marking the position of the rotor, then removing the governor and governor housing intact which has the driven gear attached, then adjust the mesh of the gears to position the rotor where you want it. This gear is driven by the cam gear. Duey



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SemoRedneck

08-16-2001 06:01:46




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: C outta time in reply to Duey (IA), 08-16-2001 05:45:04  
Sorry I am slow minded, but do you mean re-meshing the Gov gear to the cam? If so how far do I need to knocker apart? Is it pretty easy?

Semo



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Duey (IA)

08-16-2001 09:01:14




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: C outta time in reply to SemoRedneck, 08-16-2001 06:01:46  
If you look at the assembly, you will see the two fastening bolts and stud. Take the dist. cap (two screws) off to reveal the rotor so you can mark where it is then, pull the assy of the mag and gov housing out far enough to turn the gear a tooth in the direction you want. Then reassemble and proceed to retime. Duey



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SemoRedneck

08-16-2001 09:20:37




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: C outta time in reply to Duey (IA), 08-16-2001 09:01:14  
My Mag does not allow for the ajustment you are talking about. I know which type of mag you are referring to, but mine is not made that way.

Thanks tho...



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steve

08-16-2001 16:24:48




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: C outta time in reply to SemoRedneck, 08-16-2001 09:20:37  
Semo--I dont think we are all talking about the same thing. I agree with Dick and Dewey. Unless your mag had been drastically modified there is a way to change the timing. Lets pretend the mag has 18 teeth that drives off the cam shaft. 18 divides into 360 degrees 20 times so each tooth covers 20 degrees of adjustment. loosen the mounting bolts and the mag will rotate from 0 to 20 degrees. if you remove the mag and move it to tooth no 2 without moving the camshaft then your adjustment is now from 21 to 40 degrees. Remove the mag and rotate it another tooth relative to the cam and you move 41 to 60 degrees. Of coures these numbers are not exact, but it is ment to show you that you can get any timing number you want by removing the mag or distributor, turning it slightly and sticking it back into the cam gear mesh a tooth different than it was originally. Loosening the two bolts and rotating the mag in the notched holes gives the fine tuning. I dont think any of us see how your mag could drive any different than that. They all have a gear and it can be set in many positions, one tooth at a time.

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Duey (IA)

08-16-2001 19:43:42




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: C outta time in reply to steve, 08-16-2001 16:24:48  
Yep, Duey



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steve

08-15-2001 18:48:11




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 Re: C outta time in reply to SEMOREDNECK, 08-15-2001 07:40:06  
the cam timing is not off unless you have had the cover off and moved a gear. more likely the timing is wrong in the mag. Did you have the mag off where it could be installed in the cover a tooth off. are the spark plug wires in the right hole or have they been rotated one position. I would suggest if you have pulled the mag out, then remove it again and check the gear drive on front. if you have not had it out then do external timeing. you can spread the point opening a little if you are just off a bit and want to get the final couple degrees. if you are off a bunch, pull the mag and move it a tooth.

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SemoRedneck

08-16-2001 05:14:55




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 Re: Re: C outta time in reply to steve, 08-15-2001 18:48:11  
Thanks fer the advise...but I already have done those things. There is just no way to get the mag timed right. I have timed mags before and I can generally get them right on the money the first time. I guess the score is just AC 1 - Semo - 0.

Maybe I'll get sometime this weekend to try and even the score, but it is haymakin' time, so...

Thanks fer the info...I'll keep yall posted.

Semo

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Dick L

08-16-2001 06:33:59




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 Re: Re: Re: C outta time in reply to SemoRedneck, 08-16-2001 05:14:55  
I have had problems such as you have discribed with magnetos that have shown signs that they have been worked on by real pros. I solved it this way. Get the engine set up on compression stroke at TDC, set the impluse just ready to click with the cap and cover off, (takes a few trys sometimes) slide the cover on meshing the gears holding the rotor with the fireing tab on the boss pointing at number terminal, back up the cover and when you feel the gear teeth start to move back the rotor up one tooth counter clock ways. At TDC the mag driver groves on the back of the governer gear should be close to level. If the governer gear is out of time it will not be.

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SemoRedneck

08-16-2001 06:58:48




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: C outta time in reply to Dick L, 08-16-2001 06:33:59  
My govenor groove that the mag sits in is at roughly the 10 oclock and 4 oclock position(quite a ways from level). Does that mean the gov and cam are out of time?



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Duey (IA)

08-16-2001 20:31:48




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: C outta time in reply to SemoRedneck, 08-16-2001 06:58:48  
The groove you noted in the post to Dick is located in the governor housing. However you have to remove this housing, remove it, and you will have, in hand, the gear we are talking about. The governor weights are attached to this gear and operate the lever attached to the external governor spring. You should see which way you want to turn this gear to relocate this slot so when you reinstall this housing the rotor will be where you want it. We are talking about an ALLIS CHALMERS engine!!! Duey

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SemoRedneck

08-17-2001 05:22:37




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: C outta time in reply to Duey (IA), 08-16-2001 20:31:48  
AHHHHH HHHHH H..... ....

Yes - I understand which gear you are refering to now, I have not taken that gear out yet, but that was my next move. I was just confused about adjusting the mag, because it made no effect to the postion the points are in, and we all know if the points dont fire when the rotor is on the lug it will never work. All of you fine gents anwsered my question, sorry I was so slow on the uptake. One more question---Is that something that just happens, or should I expect to find a problem in there?

Thanks again,
Semo

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Duey (IA)

08-17-2001 19:46:16




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: C outta time in reply to SemoRedneck, 08-17-2001 05:22:37  
SemoRedneck,
Solid gear mesh. No way to jump teeth unless the gear is removed. Other things like point gap could allow engine to run and not be quite in perfect time. Usually replacement of governor weights, then not getting reinstalled with correct gear mesh, starts this problem. Glad the light bulb finally came on!!Duey



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SemoRedneck

08-20-2001 07:51:29




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: C outta time in reply to Duey (IA), 08-17-2001 19:46:16  
Found the problem. The flywheel "FIRE" mark was incorrect. I dont know how, maybe a different model flywheel? Oh well, got it figured out. The Lil 'C' sounds like a sewing machine, Thanks again for everyones help.


Semo



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