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Model B won't run.....What next??

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Mike

06-05-2001 05:32:05

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I just installed a rebuild kit in the carb. The tractor will run with the choke closed only. Thanks to a responce from someone, I adjusted the float level which was off slightly but not much. It still shuts off as soon as I try to open the choke. I can start it right up again, but as soon as I touch that choke, it dies. What else can I look for??

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Dale E.

06-07-2001 05:42:57

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Re: Model B won't run.....What next?? in reply to Mike, 06-05-2001 05:32:05

Mike, Went through my carb yesterday evening and reset the float and that fixed mine.(as far as needing the choke on to run smooth.) Try something besides Champion plugs. Usually don't need choke to crank down in south MS. Does the carb have a main jet adjustment? Mine didn't. Could be float or wrong jet size or adjustment. What kinda compression do you have? Dynamite in each cylinder would eliminate the problem!!! Hang tuff. Let us know.

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mike bell

06-08-2001 11:28:24

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Re: Re: Model B won't run.....What next?? in reply to Dale E., 06-07-2001 05:42:57

Dave E; The carb has been eliminated from the broblem at a $280 price tag, will change to another brand of plug as you suggest. Any market for 48 slightly used carbon coated plugs?? I tried the dynimite in each cylinder but can't get a hot enough spark to ignite it. Back to the drawing board. Love MS. My son makes gasoline at chevron. Mike
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Clint Evans

06-05-2001 12:29:03

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Re: Model B won't run.....What next?? in reply to Mike, 06-05-2001 05:32:05

Some model B's had a vacumn port in the intake
just above the carb. Make sure if you have one that is closed.
Also check the intake gasket.
Also on the under side of the intake I have
seen one rusted through with some pinholes
in it.
I would use a propane torch with no flame over the entire intake as well as the gasket. That seems to help locate the
leak if there is one.
Be careful of a hot exhaust...

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Mike Bell

06-06-2001 06:11:27

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Re: Re: Model B won't run.....What next?? in reply to Clint Evans, 06-05-2001 12:29:03

Model B runs 15 min and fouls the plugs with black carbon. Insert new plugs and it will restart cold and run another 15 min then repeats the foul plugs. Carb rebuilt . Need advice as to where to look next

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Dave Grubb

06-06-2001 08:25:53

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Re: Re: Re: Model B won't run.....What next?? in reply to Mike Bell, 06-06-2001 06:11:27

It now looks like the engine is running too rich due to the carbon fouled plugs. Did you do anything to the engine after your first posting yesterday? What did the propane checks show. By the way you can spray WD40 around suspected vacumn leak areas and it will work like a propane torch: propane is WD40's propellant. How many turns open are the idle and load needle valves? Is the fuel tank cap vent open? Is fuel flowing to the carb real good? I am wondering if you have more than one problem going on.

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Mike Bell

06-06-2001 11:56:53

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Model B won't run.....What next?? in reply to Dave Grubb, 06-06-2001 08:25:53

tractor running too rich, is agreeded, cannot locate cause. Carb rebuilt to correct the too rich, but now wont start.
believe that the tractor was run for prelonged period with #2/#3 plug wires reversed and plugs fouled on both cylinders , have rebuilt carb,magneto,generator/ electrical .Ran well , starts well but continuse to carbon and foul plugs.
Not fimiliar with Propane test or how to do so.
Looking for causes before tearing down for valve, ring , head inspection.Purchased the tractor running poorly and have gotton this far. Whats next?

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Dave Grubb

06-06-2001 12:23:55

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Model B won't run.....What next?? in reply to Mike Bell, 06-06-2001 11:56:53

Do you have the hottest range correct spark plugs in the engine? Is the intake system or exhaust system restricted in any way? A restricted exhaust system will cause carbon fouling. I am presuming that your gasoline is fresh and not contaminated with diesel fuel or something. The next thing I would consider is removing the valve cover and watching the valve train operate. You could have worn camshaft. All of the rocker arms should move about equally and about a 1/4". Don't give up, science and technology win every time. Let us know what you finnally find, it helps everyone.

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Mike Bell

06-06-2001 16:48:16

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Model B won't run.....What next?? in reply to Dave Grubb, 06-06-2001 12:23:55

Using the hottest range of plugs. The intake manifold in brand new, the carb was rebuilt by myself 1st, then I Paid $120 and had a good shop rebuild it again and put it back on. Full choke until blue smoke comes out the exaust then it starts and runs well for about 1 hour before it dies, the plugs are then carboned over and I have to put new plugs in and , repeat the start and run procces for another hour and it fouls the new plugs out and dies, etc.
Time for last rights.???

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steve

06-06-2001 19:48:50

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Model B won't run.....What next?? in reply to Mike Bell, 06-06-2001 16:48:16

blue smoke means burning oil. black smoke means excess fuel. I believe with the two plug wires internchanged you were firing at the wrong time and have burnt the top land of the pistons. you may be sucking oil around the rings untill it fouls the plugs. Are you using some oil???

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mike bell

06-07-2001 04:25:56

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Model B won't run.....What next?? in reply to steve, 06-06-2001 19:48:50

Here are yesterdays results after the rebuilt carb was put on the Allis Chalmers Model # WD45 just to verify which tractor. Yesterdays start up.
Hard to start. Full choke and full throttle. crank it over like mad . will not fire until there is a smell of gasoline comming out the exaust. Then will fire, black smoke pours out of the exaust, and then settles down in 5 seconds and purrs.
Turn off the choke in about 15 seconds. The tractor runs , lots of power, bury the front loader bucket and the rear wheels will dig and spin in the dirt when the bucket cannot be pushed any further. Tractor runs with lots of power,no sputtering no missing, runs great for about 1 hour.
then it starts to miss.
I headed for the shed and shut it down.and pulled the plugs and put in a new set hottest recommended for the tractor by the manual. Tractor won't start again until it sets over night.
The removed plugs are solid black except for # 4 cylinder which still has a white insulator.Plugs from 1,2&3 are wet and black, I can put the plug back into # 4 cylinder, and 3 new plugs and after the engine is completly cold,over night, repeat the above start process again and get another hour of a good run, shut down and now all 4 plugs are wet and black and dead. I am sure that the last owner that sold it to me had the # 2and 3 wires crossed and the plugs were dead and it ran on 2 cylinders , how long , who knows, 6 volt, I rebuilt the carb, starter, generator, new intake manifold clean and fresh gasoline ,rewired, set timing and the magneto is in good shape with a slight play in the shaft at the rotor end from some bearing wear I assume. Don't seem to lose oil, but at 1 hour a day can't tell. thats where I am this morning. Any what next sugestions, before I buy the dinamite.???

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Dave Grubb

06-07-2001 07:48:28

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Model B won't run.....What next?? in reply to mike bell, 06-07-2001 04:25:56

Pull all of the spark plugs and do a compression check on each cylinder and let us know. The compression should be about 80-100 psi but more importantly there should no be more than 10-20 difference between cylinders. Also if you can find some way to connect a vacumn gage to the intake system try to get a reading of manifold vacumn when the engine is running and let us know. The gage should read 15-18" and be steady. A low reading means a vacumn leak or ignition timing problems or valve timing problems. A pulsating ready means a cylinder has low compression due to mechanical damage:i.e. burnt valve, burned piston, etc..
When the engine is running ground each spark plug and see if the engine performance declines the same amount for each plug that is grounded. If grounding of a particular plug wire has no appreciable affect on the engine then something is wrong with that cylinder. This may help pin point the bad cylinder/s if there is one. Did the previous owner do anything to affect the valve timing like replace a cam shaft or timing gear? Don't get out the dynamite yet, it is just getting interesting for us.

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mike bell

06-07-2001 13:49:33

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Model B won't run.....What next?? in reply to Dave Grubb, 06-07-2001 07:48:28

Caught me in time,as I was pullint the plugs to check compression, will post the results, help is reallu apprecieated, might lick this thing yet.
E-mail address at [email protected] Thanks for your support

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Clint Evans

06-05-2001 12:28:22

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Re: Model B won't run.....What next?? in reply to Mike, 06-05-2001 05:32:05

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Robert Mull

06-05-2001 11:41:07

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Re: Model B won't run.....What next?? in reply to Mike, 06-05-2001 05:32:05

Do the Propane Torch test without lighting the torch.If it is sucking air it will smooth out when it gets a taste of the Propane.

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Dale E.

06-05-2001 11:26:11

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Re: Model B won't run.....What next?? in reply to Mike, 06-05-2001 05:32:05

Mike, Sounds to me to be an intake air leak somewhere.Could be with the carb or possibly in the manifold. Did you get the throttle shaft sealed up good? If you have a propane torch open the fuel valve and put it up to the intake manifold and around the carb while the engine is running with the choke off. If the engine smooths out you have found the air leak. I have one that is doing the same thing. I havn't had time to see about it. Think mine might be a water droplet in the wrong place. Maybe somebody can put some more light on this subject.

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Dave Grubb

06-05-2001 07:11:08

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Re: Model B won't run.....What next?? in reply to Mike, 06-05-2001 05:32:05

What parts were in the rebuild kit you put in? You may have gotten a defective part in the kit. Having to run with the choke on means the engine is getting not enough fuel or too much air(usually a vacumn leak). Did you reset the needle valves for any reason? Did you replace any fuel jets? Possibly one of them is the wrong size or not drilled all the way. That's all I can think of at the moment without more information.

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mike bell

06-06-2001 16:22:24

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Re: Re: Model B won't run.....What next?? in reply to Dave Grubb, 06-05-2001 07:11:08

carb rebuilt with all new componets,Then I took it in to a good shop and paid $120 to get it done again, put it back on the tractor and If I choke it until I get blue smoke out of the exaust, then it starts and runs well, with no choke, for about 1 hour then totally fouls out the plugs with black carbon and dies. any thoughts???

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Duey (IA)

06-06-2001 16:55:51

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Re: Re: Re: Model B won't run.....What next?? in reply to mike bell, 06-06-2001 16:22:24

Mike, Check your spark. Poor ignition can cause some of these symptoms. Coil, condensor, timing etc. Start by pulling a plug, then, leaving the wire on, ground the plug and see what kind of spark you have. If the spark is good, check timing. A coil or condensor sometimes shorts out only after they get warmed up. You gotta be gettin close to finding the problem. Duey

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mike bell

06-07-2001 14:32:45

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Model B won't run.....What next?? in reply to Duey (IA), 06-06-2001 16:55:51

compression check completed as follows

# 1 Cylinder 88 lbs # 2 Cylinder 75 lbs # 3 cylinder 85 Lbs # 4 cylinder 85 lbs
The engine was completly overhauled by previous owner , I am going out to talk with him this PM to get the details of exactly what was done. I have always been concerned with the Magnito, Not sure that I am getting a hot spark, the timing I set back to the " manual" setting and adjusted with a timing light, way off from the setting that the prior had it set.
compression not that bad , should I go into the Magneto next. I Can get it rebuilt, expensive...
Points and rotor and condenser are new, less that 30 hours and I have re checked and reset the points and timing 3 differant times just to be sure. Improved the preformance greatly so far but still fouls plugs. What next Mike [email protected]

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Duey (IA)

06-07-2001 15:54:03

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Model B won't run.....What next?? in reply to mike bell, 06-07-2001 14:32:45

Mike, Before tearing everything apart again, try running it until it shuts down, then try checking the spark. When the coil or condensor gets hot, thats when they will short out. Just have a clean plug ready to check with when it quits. You are going to find it soon, just a process of elimination. Duey

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Mike bell

06-08-2001 04:55:42

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Model B won't run.....What next?? in reply to Duey (IA), 06-07-2001 15:54:03

Duey; last night after the conpression check"
I checked the spark and can find none, Pulled and replaced the points, and set the gap,set # 1 cylinder to top dead center on compression stroke,then pulled the distrubator cap from the magneto and the position of the rotor was at # 1 plug wire, still get no spark. the ignition wires are new, the condenser and points are new and the rotor is new. The dist. cap was on the tractor when I brought it. The tractor started before I started with the compression check, as I had mentioned eariler. I torqued the nuts on the manifold to 25 pounds 5 pounds over the manual, to assure no leaks , I had tried the wd40 spray at the intake and carb and found no leaks or pinholes. I have not gotten in to the body of the magneto any deeper than the points, and condenser. never seen what i call a HOT spark jump from the plug or the plug wire as I test for spark, need to watch the spark jump procted from sunlight to see it. That is where I am this morning. on and off again spark or weak spark, I suspect???

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Dave Grubb

06-08-2001 06:37:52

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Model B won't run.....What next?? in reply to Mike bell, 06-08-2001 04:55:42

I think your problem is becoming more of an ignition problem than a mechanical or fuel problem. Duey is correct in that a lot of electrical components fail or degrade when they get warmed up. It seems you are only left with a possible bad coil. Are your plug wires carbon filled or solid wire?

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Mike Bell

06-08-2001 11:11:46

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Model B won't run.....What next?? in reply to Dave Grubb, 06-08-2001 06:37:52

Dave : the wires are solid wire, not carbon: the distributor is on the end of the magneto and there is no coil on the 6 volt system, As I under the Magneto it is a two stage mag. One hot spark to start and a decreased spark to run, I am biginning to feel that this magneto that generates the spark is the srea of my problem but have not verified it . Is this the time to convert the electrial system from 6 to 12 volts and or install a electron ignition system ???? Thanks Mike

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Dave Grubb

06-08-2001 12:39:16

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Model B won't run.....What next?? in reply to Mike Bell, 06-08-2001 11:11:46

If I were you I would have the coil in the mag replaced. Try Sandy Lake Implement on the magneto coil or rebuilding your mag. The mag does not have two coils. It has an impulse coupling to spin the mag fast and hard in a pulsating manner during cranking. A mag has to have some rotational speed for the rotating parts to be able to induce a great enough voltage from the coil to fire the plugs. Try holding the leads on an old crank phone when turning thr crank slow and the turn the crank hard and fast. Biggggg difference. In the future you may consider converting to battery ignition by changing over to a 12v system with a distributor and electronic ignition but that is a big Christmas list. Genessee Products has conversion kits for electronic ignition and can supply the small (smaller than a Delco 10SI) internally regulated Hitachi alternator. You would of course have to have battery ignition and a distributor to be able to install electronic ignition. Don't give up. The only thing that can't be reasoned with to conclusion is a woman.

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mike bell

06-08-2001 19:32:21

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Model B won't run.....What next?? in reply to Dave Grubb, 06-08-2001 12:39:16

Great news Dave the mag is in the shop to rebuild and will be back on the tractor in 4 days. You guys are great, Going to fire up the gold wing tomorrow and go to an Allis Chalmers show, Have a great week end; MIKE

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Dave Grubb

06-08-2001 12:38:49

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Model B won't run.....What next?? in reply to Mike Bell, 06-08-2001 11:11:46

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Duey (IA)

06-08-2001 08:22:58

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Model B won't run.....What next?? in reply to Dave Grubb, 06-08-2001 06:37:52

Mike, Gotta be the coil. Duey

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mike bell

06-08-2001 11:18:18

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Model B won't run.....What next?? in reply to Duey (IA), 06-08-2001 08:22:58

duey; this is a magneto system, 6 volt . I have no external coil on this tractor , am I correct??

Do I pull and repalce the Magneto, convert it to a 12 volts system or try to convert to electronic ignition.?? Mike

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Duey (IA)

06-08-2001 12:11:08

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Model B won't run.....What next?? in reply to mike bell, 06-08-2001 11:18:18

Mike, The coil is inside of the mag and there is a brass rod that serves as a coil wire from the coil to the distributor cap. Not a two stage coil just the impulse delay that retards the spark for starting. This makes the clicking noise when you crank it over. It doesn't operate at above starting speed and allows the spark to be advanced for full power.
Should you decide to convert to 12 volt, let me know. I have a wiring diagram and some part numbers I can E-Mail you. Price the coil first, you may want to stick with you have. Duey

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Mike Bell

06-08-2001 19:37:03

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Model B won't run.....What next?? in reply to Duey (IA), 06-08-2001 12:11:08

Great news Duey:Now it this mag fixes the problem, the rest of the tractor will be worth restoring, Got to pad that seat,hard and cold here in WA.Hang on to that wire and My e-mail you will be hearing from me. Mike

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