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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Would I have a chance in small claims court?

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JRT

10-30-2007 22:29:24




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This summer at beginning of hay season (May) I had a breakdown on my 311 New Holland Square baler. To make a long story short, It was August before I got it fixed. My BIG mistake was I took it to the New Holland dealer. They messed with it for weeks and simply could not fix it. When I called them, they came out and could see nothing wrong other than a broken knotter frame. When they took it in they tried to gouge me for a complete overhaul, ordering one piece at a time with a 3 to 4 day wait between orders. Meanwhile I was not baling hay. I paid them $1,300.00 for parts and labor with 570.00 of that being labor and it never did bale until I finally hired someone else to fix it.The first bale I tried to bale after I got it home, it broke a needle. When I called the dealership telling the manager about the needle, he said, "now you listen, that old baler of yours in worn out, and we are not going to spend any more time on it". It turned out that I finally got it fixed by an old guy who had retired from the same outfit for $200.00. He said the work they did on it should not have taken more than 4 hours and not 13 like they had billed me for. He fixed it and it was baling perfectly when I finished hay season.It was not worn out after all. I am thinking of taking them to small claims court at least to get my labor $ back, especially after that jerk declared my baler worn out. Would I have a chance or is small claims court or is it just a joke? It costs $90.00 to file so if I lost, I would just be out more $.

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ScottyHOMEy

10-31-2007 09:38:43




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 Re: Would I have a chance in small claims court? in reply to JRT, 10-30-2007 22:29:24  
In line with what John T said, I think you'd have a poor chance of winning.

You'd have to prove that some of the work they did was unnecessary to get the baler fixed. Yes, it took some more work from the second guy to get it right, but would what he did have worked if the parts and work the dealer put into it had not been done? Even if you think so, you'd have to prove it. At most, given that they refused to work on it any furher, you might be able to make a claim for that part of the work that he had to redo, but given what he charged, I'm not sure that would be the effort.

I don't know what consumer laws are in your state, but most warranties on new machinery do not cover incidental losses, such as you may have incurred by not being able to make hay while the machine was down. In that vein, I doubt that service warranties would cover anything of that sort either -- most, in fact, exclude it if the law allows them to. NOT taking their side, but if I were them, I would argue that, by ordering one part at a time, they were making a good-faith effort to fix your baler at the least cost to you.

I don't see you faring well in court with this.

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Dave H (MI)

10-31-2007 07:48:49




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 Re: Would I have a chance in small claims court? in reply to JRT, 10-30-2007 22:29:24  
You want the simple answer? I do a lot of small claims cases in collections. You will lose. Period.



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RMinVA

10-31-2007 07:48:29




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 Re: Would I have a chance in small claims court? in reply to JRT, 10-30-2007 22:29:24  
Take um to Judge Judy. LOL LOL We'll watch you on TV.



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Stinky Cheese

10-31-2007 07:42:53




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 Re: Would I have a chance in small claims court? in reply to JRT, 10-30-2007 22:29:24  
Will you feel better after the NH dealership costs you another $90.?

You'd be better off dropping an extra $90. in plate at church on Sunday.



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rrlund

10-31-2007 06:37:59




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 Re: Would I have a chance in small claims court? in reply to JRT, 10-30-2007 22:29:24  
I'd ditto what Deano says. I was talking to a guy at an auction the other day. He said he bought a new New Idea mowing machine at the local JD dealer years ago. Said it constantly broke knives. The dealer did everything they knew how and couldn't fix it. He just kept fixing it and lived with it. He said a few years ago,he ran in to a guy who was the blockman for New Idea at that time,and told him about it. He said if he had known,they would have given him a new mower. He asked why the dealer didn't tell him that? Blockman didn't know. Moral of the story,the company wants your business and wants you satisfied.

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Goose

10-31-2007 06:33:57




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 Re: Would I have a chance in small claims court? in reply to JRT, 10-30-2007 22:29:24  
Incompetence is not illegal, and the law leans heavily on intent.

To take them to court, you would have to prove both that they intentionally botched up the repair and what their motive was for doing so.

I agree with someone else who said a well written letter to NH Customer Service might be more effective.



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John T Country Lawyer

10-31-2007 06:24:25




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 Re: Would I have a chance in small claims court? in reply to JRT, 10-30-2007 22:29:24  
JRT, Sure you have a chance, but based on my experience as an Attorney and since youre going up against a company that has a "deep pocket" and will most likely be well represented and have competent mechanics to do a good job of testifying, I wouldnt bet too much on your side, sorry.

Heres the deal, if its in Small Clains it helps your side because its more informal with somewhat relaxed rules of evidence and procedure whereby their having a good lawyer may not help all that much. One thing which could BUT IT PRIMARILY DEPENDS ON THE JUDGE, is if he or she were sympathetic to your cause, if you get say a Judge who has some practical mechanical lifes experience with poor mechanics or shoddy workmanship or even farmed some (I doubt that lol) it could help you, but I dont see that as any great hope actually.

HERES YOUR BIGGEST PROBLEM. Even if you found a sympathetic Judge, he or she must still abide by the law AND IN A CIVIL CASE YOU AS THE PLAINTIFF TO PREVAIL HAS THE BURDEN OF PROOF AND CAN ONLY WIN BY THE PREPONDERANCE OF THE EVIDENCE BEING IN YOUR FAVOR. That means if you or you can qualify someone as an "expert" (Can you get someone to testify on your behalf under oath and does he qualify as an expert????) and say one thing and the other side using competent testimony (their expert etc) say something just the opposite, and even if the evidence were 50% in your favor YOU LOOSE !!!!! !!!!! Having the Burden of Proof to prevail means your evidence must outweigh (51%) NOT JUST BE EQUAL TO THE CONTRARY evidence presented by the defendant, therefore, if you say it was their fault yet they say it wasnt, you would loose. However, thats tempered to some degree by whats called "weight of the evidence" standard i.e. if someone who testified dont know beans about the subject his testimonty doesnt count as much as someone else who does. Such a person wouldnt really be competent to testify in the first place..... .

I dont see your case as one for other then Small Claims due to the great expense and the economics reality plus absent any contractual language to the contrary, you would still have to pay your own legal fees even if you win. BESIDES just what are your damages and can you establish them with any degeree of credible accuracy????? ? Often in Small Claims the Judge will ask the Plaintiff, "What relief are you asking for" (what you want me to do) and can you establish what damages you suffered????

To prevail you first have the burden of proof by a preponderance of the evidence and then you cant just make up what damages youre entitled to, you have to establish them to the Judges satisfaction also grrrrr rrrrr

Dont let this discourage you from trying, its your call despite what myself an attorney or lay people here or elsewhere may have as opinions, get the right Judge n you may stand a chance !!!!! ! If its worth $90 to you just for satisfaction and provided its NOT a false or frivoulous claim, go for it if you like.

Best Wishes

John T Nordhoff, Retired Electrical Engineer now an Attorney in Indiana

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Deano

10-31-2007 06:14:39




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 Re: Would I have a chance in small claims court? in reply to JRT, 10-30-2007 22:29:24  
You may be better off writing a good leter to NH customer service complaining about dealer. Send copy to dealer and local Better Business Bureau. Spell out the charges and dealers poor handling. Include copies of the bills. They may react to the attention and meet you part way.



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Jay (ND)

10-31-2007 05:56:45




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 Re: Would I have a chance in small claims court? in reply to JRT, 10-30-2007 22:29:24  
Not a chance unless you can prove that they didn't do the work or put in the parts that they claimed they did.



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JML755

10-31-2007 05:54:09




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 Re: Would I have a chance in small claims court? in reply to JRT, 10-30-2007 22:29:24  
Years ago, I owned a small computer/electronics company. Took a customer to small claims for not paying for us to design and build a circuit board for him. Board worked fine. Customer said he didn't need it anymore. Not my problem, but he kept coming up with excuses not to pay. Everyone said it was an open/shut case. Had all the evidence in my favor. Went before the judge. He barely listened to my evidence (don't think he understood it). Judge just asked the guy "do you want this thing (board)?". Customer said "no". Judge said "Case dismissed".

My point is that, judges are not the most logical, fair or necessarily the smartest people around. If you get one that woke up on the NH side of the bed that morning, you'll lose no matter what evidence you have. On the other hand, if he had a BIL that got screwed by the NH dealer, you'll walk out a winner.

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El Toro

10-31-2007 05:48:10




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 Re: Would I have a chance in small claims court? in reply to JRT, 10-30-2007 22:29:24  
I would take them to court since they charged you for fixing the baler and then said it was worn out. I ran into this problem about 12 to 15 years ago on new 90 plus gas fired furnace. In 1992 I had a new Rudd furnace and AC installed.
The furnace was supposed to be 105000 btu's and the AC was 37000 btu's. In winter of 1994 my wife called me at work about the furnace not starting the temp was 17 degrees beow zero F. I called company that installed it and he said they only had this problem in Canada. He installed a kit that supposed to heat the incoming
air and it still wasn't right. I called Rudd and they needed the model and serial number and they said it was only 95000btu's. I called the company
and they quit answering my calls. In 1995 just
short of the 3 year statue of limitations for filing a claim I called a lawyer that I knew and gave him all the details. He said that was fraud
by charging for the 105k furnace and installing the 95k. He told me over the phone how to file a claim. To make a long story short I got a new Rudd 105K furnace installed in Jan 1996. I still had the original contract and it called for the 105K furnace. No problem since 1996 with the new furnace. I think you would have a case if the retired mechanic would testify for you. Hal

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havvey

10-31-2007 05:13:28




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 Re: Would I have a chance in small claims court? in reply to JRT, 10-30-2007 22:29:24  
Jrt,let me give you some suggestions here. Small claims is generally a joke depends on your state here i would go to a higher court. (small claims can be hard to enforce a judgement) 2. I would contact NH directly and file a complaint on this out fit. 3. Look at your state better buisness bureau atorney general and other resources. (This puts heat on them) 4 go to the top of this company it has an owner/manager (not the peon on the front desk). I would try in person first if you used a credit card file a complaint too this puts a hold on the funds. hope this helps.

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triplerange

10-31-2007 05:11:13




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 Re: Would I have a chance in small claims court? in reply to JRT, 10-30-2007 22:29:24  
Why bother? A little P.R. like you just did will make you feel a lot better...and is the sure thing...now if you would kindly state the town the NH dealer is in, maybe prevent some folks from doing business with them. Also a recommendation to the old mechanic would be nice for his business.



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Wayne in Tx

10-31-2007 04:47:59




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 Re: Would I have a chance in small claims court? in reply to JRT, 10-30-2007 22:29:24  
Depends on the court (rural vs urban, etc..)but, I'm not sure that I would file. Proving that their was negligence or fraud on their part would be hard, did they replace parts that were not needed, was the labor amount unreasonable for what they did. Would your mechanic be an expert witness against them. I'm sure that if they are like most dealers they work on hundreds of pieces of equipment a year and could provide references for their work along with "expert opinion" on various equipment they service. You would have the burden of proof that you were charged for repairs and parts that were not needed (incompetentcy), knowingly improperly performed/installed causing you damage or harm (negligence), charged for parts and labor that you did not recieve (fraud).

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Go For It

10-30-2007 23:40:27




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 Re: Would I have a chance in small claims court? in reply to JRT, 10-30-2007 22:29:24  
Send them a certified letter outlining your grievences and put a $ figure on what it would take to make you happy. Don't be afraid to ask for more than just your repair bill as you more than likely lost some money waiting on them. If they don't respond send them another just like it and ONLY THEN should you mention going to court if they don't make an effort to make you happy.

Most likely they don't want to end up in court or with their name in the paper as shoddy operators and will make you an offer.

If not get your paper in order and file the claim.

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Walt Davies

10-30-2007 23:12:22




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 Re: Would I have a chance in small claims court? in reply to JRT, 10-30-2007 22:29:24  
If you can get a copy of the factory list for time to replace parts to back up what you are saying then yes but no judge is going to take your word over theirs unless you have good proof.
Walt



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Vern-MI

10-31-2007 04:28:27




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 Re: Would I have a chance in small claims court? in reply to Walt Davies, 10-30-2007 23:12:22  
Judges are in business because they make money when you win your case by bringing in more lawsuits. They want you to win. However you must have proof that the work N.H. did was substandard. That proof would come from the guy that eventually fixed the machine or in other words the old N.H. mechanic. Is he really willing to testify against his old employer? If so I would file otherwise forget it. If he seems to be on the fence and unsure that he would testify then he probably would be an unwilling and consequently unqualified expert witness.

I suspect that the judge would fnd a reasonable judgement in your favor for some of the labor and parts that they replaced but not all. You would have to demonstrate that some of the parts and labor did no good in repairing the baler.

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Mike (WA)

10-31-2007 08:33:40




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 Re: Would I have a chance in small claims court? in reply to Vern-MI, 10-31-2007 04:28:27  
"Judges are in business because they make money when you win your case by bringing in more lawsuits."???? I'm sorry, but that's just plain wrong. Judges are on a salary, and the last thing they want is more cases- every one I know is overworked as it is, what with all the meth-head crime these days. They gain no advantage by you winning your case- actually, if they're trying to "stack the deck", they'd do it in favor of defendants, so plaintiffs are discouraged from filing suits.

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Vern-MI

10-31-2007 10:51:07




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 Re: Would I have a chance in small claims court? in reply to Mike (WA), 10-31-2007 08:33:40  
"Judges are on a salary, and the last thing they want is more cases- every one I know is overworked as it is, what with all the meth-head crime these days. They gain no advantage by you winning your case- actually, if they're trying to "stack the deck", they'd do it in favor of defendants, so plaintiffs are discouraged from filing suits."

I think you just proved my point.

True, judges are on a salary and don't get paid more if you win your case but they do get more people to file when there is a chance that they will win. If there were no chance of winning there would be no lawsuits.

True, judges may be very busy but it is because they do rule in favor of some of the plaintiffs. That is good for them because it means gauranteed employment. Judges don't work any harder or longer than they want to but instead it brings more judges into the businees to handle the additional cases.

It is a self promoting business.

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135 Fan

10-31-2007 10:43:55




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 Re: Would I have a chance in small claims court? in reply to Mike (WA), 10-31-2007 08:33:40  
From what I read no one has brought up the fact that you were told, after they took your money, that the machine was worn out. If the baler was in fact worn out, an established and competent dealer would have told you so before doing any repairs. At the vary least they should have given you an estimate of repair costs before proceeding. Most auto repair and other shops will do this so there are no surprises. It's called good business practice and will keep customers coming back. Nobody wants to throw money into something that isn't worth fixing. I just think that a good dealer should have advised you if the repair bill was going to be over a certain limit say $300 or so and also told you if it was worth fixing. It also sounds like the dealer didn't know how to fix it. That's something that could be brought up in court. Having the older guy who did get it working properly would help. I might take a chance in court. Write them a detailed letter of your complaint asking for a refund of some of the money you paid. Be reasonable what you ask for. Put in the letter that if they are not willing to rectify the matter you will be filing a claim before a court of competent jurisdiction. The mention of going to court may be enough to get them to want to settle with you. If they want to hire a lawyer it will cost them money. Even if they get a lawyer to look at your letter and give a response. If they take a lawyer to court because they want to have better representation will cost them more than if they gave you a portion of your money back. Legal proceedings could be very bad for their reputation and they would need several key employees to be off work to go to court. I think I would send a very well written but "nice" letter to them outlining your displeasure and see what happens. Even if you mention going to court in the letter doesn't mean that you absolutely have to. It's just a way to make them think about what they should do. Just my thoughts. Good Luck. Dave

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