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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

OT - True four-wheel drive on truck

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CB in central N

02-28-2007 10:14:51




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Greetings.

A few days ago (during our big nor"easter storm) I took my Toyota 4x4 up the road through some heavy drifts to try and pull another car out. To make a long story short, I got stuck too and had to get myself and the other car pulled out with a tractor. Anyway...

While I was trying to get the truck out (road had iced over, zero traction and downhill slope) I noticed that in 4-wheel-drive only ONE rear and ONE forward tire were spinning.

I recall seeing somewhere years ago a reference to installing some type of kit that will actually let all four wheels provide traction when 4-wheel-drive is engaged. I would appreciate any opinion as to these "kits", how effective they are, how difficult they are to install, and if are they worthwhile.

Thanks in advance.

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Kent in KC

03-01-2007 12:08:54




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 Re: OT - True four-wheel drive on truck in reply to CB in central NY, 02-28-2007 10:14:51  
A few weeks ago in Kansas City we had a couple inches of accumulated ice with about eight inches of snow atop it. Out at the construction site I managed to get my Honda Element (real-time AWD), Case 580k backhoe (2WD with locking drive axle engaged) and Ford 901 PowerMaster tractor all stuck. However, I locked the hubs on Ole Blue, an '89 Ford f-150 305 4WD and proceeded to pull them all back to the barn (one at a time, of course).

It's not that I don't know how to drive in this stuff, been doing it for 40 years, just that ice under there was denying all but the best vehicles any traction. That old truck impresses me.

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Ken Thies

03-01-2007 09:27:25




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 Re: OT - True four-wheel drive on truck in reply to CB in central NY, 02-28-2007 10:14:51  
You guys forget that most 4X4s have a small differential in the transfer case too.
That one will get you stuck in some situations.
I kind of like my 64 power wagon. full time for off road.
Ken



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CB in central NY

03-01-2007 06:49:02




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 Re: OT - True four-wheel drive on truck in reply to CB in central NY, 02-28-2007 10:14:51  
Thanks to everyone for their responses. It sounds like I"ll stick with what I have. This is the first time since 1994 when I got stuck so badly that I had to get pulled out.



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buickanddeere

02-28-2007 21:20:52




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 Re: OT - True four-wheel drive on truck in reply to CB in central NY, 02-28-2007 10:14:51  
Lockers are fine IF..... .....IF you drive with the mindset the vehicle has lockers. You have to feather the throttle and crank the steering wheel to keep her pointed in the correct direction even through you maybe travelings sideways towards your destination. There are times when you have gone way farther than a 4WD open vehicle but you have to give up rather than get too sideways. I drove a Grand National for 15 winters with a Detroit Locker rear diff.

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Walt Davies

02-28-2007 19:45:24




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 Re: OT - True four-wheel drive on truck in reply to CB in central NY, 02-28-2007 10:14:51  
My 97 Ford Ranger when in 4 wheel drive will spin the inside tires when turning sharp. You know all 4 are digging in when you do this. I use it on the farm and have on got it stuck once when Ma drove it off into a ravine in a rain storm. I used my tractor to guide it up the hill but it did most of the pulling on its own. I used the tractor because I didn't want to wind up further down the canyon.
My friend has small Chevy pickup he got it stuck trying to back out a gate on a small wet grassy hill. I have backed out this gate many times with my Ranger. I have electric locks and shiter on it.
Walt

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Mel in SW Iowa

02-28-2007 17:56:59




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 Re: OT - True four-wheel drive on truck in reply to CB in central NY, 02-28-2007 10:14:51  
In 4' of fresh snow or a solid ice pack that is trying to melt on top, I have had the best luck
with 4WD with open differentials and tire chains
with either V or straight ice bars on the crossbars, as long as you can tolerate a top speed of 35 with a short burst up to 45 ocassionally. I tried to buy a 4WD pickup with
lockers in 1974 in Colorado Springs when I was driving between C.S. and Albuquerque a lot. I probably owe my life to the salesman that talked me out of the lockers and told me where to buy some good HD tire chains.(I had ice studs in all
4 tires too) Lockers do work good in SW Iowa mud and ???

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Dave Anderson

02-28-2007 16:33:35




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 Re: OT - True four-wheel drive on truck in reply to CB in central NY, 02-28-2007 10:14:51  
My '74 Pinzgauer 710m came with front and rear lockers-and 5 gears under 30 mph. Only problem is it aint got no gears over 65 mph!



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135 Fan

02-28-2007 15:30:01




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 Re: OT - True four-wheel drive on truck in reply to CB in central NY, 02-28-2007 10:14:51  
A skid steer is true four wheel drive. Most vehicles with 4 wheel drive come with a limited slip rear differential. Posi is the GM name for limited slip. It is not a locker. It allows the wheel with the most traction to turn rather than a regular diff. that lets the one with the least traction spin. Some people with Hot rods will weld up the spider gear to make a solid axle. On dry ground a locker or solid axle will skid the inside tire when turning sharp. Detroit lockers are probably the most common. The front diff. has a lot more problems with putting a locking diff. on because each wheel has to be able to turn very sharp. Take a two wheel drive tractor with differential lock engaged and try to turn. No matter how hard you turn the wheel you keep going in a straight line. Now imagine a vehicle with locking diffs. front and rear. I've seen a lot of people with 4 wheel drives that figure they can go anywhere. They can't but do get stuck pretty bad trying. A lot of people seem to think a 4 wheel drive will stop a lot faster too. It won't. In fact it might take longer to stop because of the extra weight. 4 wheel or all wheel drive on a vehicle is a really misleading statement. It just means that all 4 wheels can get power but not necessarily at the same time. Hope this clarifies it for you. Dave

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omahagreg

02-28-2007 14:20:04




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 Re: OT - True four-wheel drive on truck in reply to CB in central NY, 02-28-2007 10:14:51  
Chevy and Dodge 4xs in 4 hi, I believe, are as you describe-1 front and 1 rear. In 4 low, however, you have very limited steering capacity, which makes me believe it is somehow locked up differently. Not sure if it is like posi traction, but, I have been lead to believe they will spin all four (?). Maybe someone with more knowledge will chime in if I am way off base. Greg



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dds-inc

02-28-2007 14:09:36




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 Re: OT - True four-wheel drive on truck in reply to CB in central NY, 02-28-2007 10:14:51  
you guys don't even have to write a full page on how to describe this.

TRUE 4wd is front and rear lockers. SEMI-4wd is open front and rear diffs. ("two" wheel drive)
TRUE 2wd is a rear locker.
SEMI-2wd is an open rear diff. ("one" wheel drive)

It's really not rocket science. Simple Physics. A two wheel drive locked axle will be similar to a 4wd with open diffs.



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85_Ranger4x4

02-28-2007 18:28:40




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 Re: OT - True four-wheel drive on truck in reply to dds-inc, 02-28-2007 14:09:36  
Hardly, the weight of the engine over the front end drastically gives a open diffed 4x4 an edge on a locked or l/s 2wd. The 2wd has to push the two weighted non powered wheels thru whatever, the 4x4 even open will try to pull itself thru.

After 50-100k miles a clutch limited slip might as well be considered open, unless you put new clutches in it.



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dds-inc

03-01-2007 08:02:01




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 Re: OT - True four-wheel drive on truck in reply to 85_Ranger4x4, 02-28-2007 18:28:40  
That's true, never thought about it for a moment

And also I was referring to a diff locker, NOT limited slips. I HATE limited slips.



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jdemaris

02-28-2007 12:17:12




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 Re: OT - True four-wheel drive on truck in reply to CB in central NY, 02-28-2007 10:14:51  
Just because one wheel spins, it doesn't mean that the other isn't trying (if only a little). Certainly not true 4WD, when one wheel spins there still can be a little - and sometimes no pressure being applied to other. But, for one to be getting no power to it at all, the other would have to have zero traction. I spent years driving on ice covered and/or unplowed roads with Deere-dealership service vehicles. First one I drove was a custom-built IH Truck with posi-traction front and back. It was a death-trap. We finally pulled the posi's out of it. When you're on a slippery road, - let's say with a 4WD, and tires start spinning - one in back and one in front. That also means that you have two tires NOT spinning and they act like anchors to hold you on the road. With the posi's - if you get them spinning, it will often throw you off the road sideways. Yes, they will give you more traction - but I don't think it's worth it. I've got one 4WD drive now with a posi just in the back. If I'm trying to climb an ice covered hill, and both rear wheels start spinning - it will through my rear off the road real fast. I've been on such hills where I could not go - since no matter how easy I tried to go - either I didn't move, or the two tires broke loose and chucked me sideways. I find it much easier driving with standard differentials. If one back tire slips and I really need both rear wheels - I just put on the parking brake - just tight enough where drag becomes equal on both wheels and they both turn. I guess some new trucks and cars have a traction control option that automatically applies the brakes to the wheel that spins - so the other will kick in. I wish they built trucks with hydro-lockers like John Deere did in some tractors. Just engage it - and hydraulic clutch packs lock up all the differentials - only when needed. I live on probably one of the worst winter roads you're apt to find (as a public road that is). We're on top of a mountain and the road never gets salted because it's dirt. We get wind drifts and ice all winter, minus 30F temps at times, and often - stopping when coming down the hill - is more worrysome than making it UP the hill. I've experimented with many kinds of vehicles, tires, chains, locking differentials, etc. I mention this just to indicate I'm not some city guy with a new SUV that rarely drives in more than one inch of snow.

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RayP(MI)

02-28-2007 17:40:14




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 Re: OT - True four-wheel drive on truck in reply to jdemaris, 02-28-2007 12:17:12  
I have two Chevy Blazers, one with rear limited slip. Haven't seen much difference in performance. Limited slip would seem OK, full locking differential doesn't seem practical.

My company car - a Ford Taurus has traction control. If one wheel slips, it applies brake on that side to direct power to other side. That way, you have two wheels spinning! Not much of a solution to the problem.



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Mike M

02-28-2007 15:24:21




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 Re: OT - True four-wheel drive on truck in reply to jdemaris, 02-28-2007 12:17:12  
The newer Dodge Ram Power Wagon has lockers,as does the Nissan Titan trucks. I almost think you can get it on a Toyota too. I think they are electric actuated.



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85_Ranger4x4

02-28-2007 12:11:39




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 Re: OT - True four-wheel drive on truck in reply to CB in central NY, 02-28-2007 10:14:51  
Some pretty good reading on the subject with a couple different breeds. I have heard a lock right requires a little different driving style but isn't too bad, I would like to get one for my puddlejumper someday. A gear limited slip would be about the best all around for a street drivin truck though.

http://www.offroaders.com/tech/limited-slip-lockers-differentials.htm



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Nolan

02-28-2007 11:34:09




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 Re: OT - True four-wheel drive on truck in reply to CB in central NY, 02-28-2007 10:14:51  
Two main flavors of lockers out there. Lunchbox types, which are always on, and the manual ones, which are open unless you lock them.

The lunchbox types are cheaper (about $250 per differential), and can be installed with standard hand tools. They are always on, unless the differential specifically unlocks. They are not pleasant for normal driving around town. You may have seen or heard a rig with these, as they are the vehicle clanking and lurching when turning into a parking space. If you look at the listings for used units on e-bay you'll see a common theme. "installed it, crashed the truck, selling it now". I to am a member of that fraternity. Had a Lock-rite in my truck.

The manual units are much more expensive and more difficult to install. The differential stays an open differential until you lock it. Then it stays locked until you unlock it. That makes them very nice for normal driving. And extremely powerfull and consistent when locked.

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IRONSALES

02-28-2007 10:43:21




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 Re: OT - True four-wheel drive on truck in reply to CB in central NY, 02-28-2007 10:14:51  
CHECK OUT FOURWHEELPARTS.COM, YOU MOST LIKELY WOULD NEED TO INSTALL SOME KIND OUT DIFFERNTIAL LOCK TO GET A TRUE FOURWHEEL DRIVE FEEL, I HAVE ARB AIR LOCKERS IN MY 97 FORD, AND THEY ARE AWESOME.



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davpal

02-28-2007 10:42:18




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 Re: OT - True four-wheel drive on truck in reply to CB in central NY, 02-28-2007 10:14:51  
I think my ford f-350 might be 3 wheel drive. It has a posi in the back! You can buy air lockers for the front and back that can be locked up from a switch on the dash and small compressor. It is pretty pricey and unless you are going on an amazon jungle expedition you will probably never need true four wheel drive.There is a lot of stuff available for your toyota though if you want to get serious about it.

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Dave from MN

02-28-2007 10:28:09




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 Re: OT - True four-wheel drive on truck in reply to CB in central NY, 02-28-2007 10:14:51  
Most four wheel drives are actually 2 wheel drives, one up front one in bvack, reason , differentials. If you want true fourwheel drive you need to install differential locks-$200-$500. Some are permanant some can be engaged/disengaged from the cab. When I was younger and dumber we always installed "LA Lockright" I think that is what they were. The replac ed the spider gears in the differential, and had some slippage if needed. Some buddies just welded the spider gears, but they had big problems later on. I really miss them old mid 70's dodges with a 318 4sp and 3.90 gears. Them old trucks sure shamed other 4x4's when it was snowen and a blowen

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GregCO

02-28-2007 10:24:46




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 Re: OT - True four-wheel drive on truck in reply to CB in central NY, 02-28-2007 10:14:51  
I think the only way you will get all four wheels to bite all the time is to install limited slip differentials both front and back or you could install air lockers, ARB makes them. They are about $600.00 each plus the cost of setting up the gears again. You could also install a Detroit locker but you won’t like the way it drives in dry conditions.


Greg



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Ken Macfarlane

02-28-2007 13:03:59




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 Re: OT - True four-wheel drive on truck in reply to GregCO, 02-28-2007 10:24:46  
The other option is the toyota electric locker, you have to do a fair bit of fab work on your diff to get it to fit.

ARB's there is less messing with it.

Chains are a lot cheaper and sometimes work better than a locker in snow.



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