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OT - barn blown up and down

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Reaver

12-06-2006 15:52:05




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My father, brother, and I built a barn / machine shed approx 4 years ago...3 sides with South side open for access...approx 14 feet clearance. Barn was 36 feet deep by 54 feet long...three 18 feet wide bays. Four rows of poles 12 feet apart...so 16 poles (6 by 6 poles, except two poles were light poles (bigger). Each pole 3 feet in the ground. Metal siding and roof with rafters, plating, and nail ties made of 2 by 6 oak and poplar sawmill lumber. I really thought this thing was built well with heavy duty lumber.
Bottomline line is last week big wind storm (came from South) picked up the whole barn at once...pulled all 16 poles straight up out of the ground and flipped it on its top and into the road. Nothing in the barn was affected...all still there with no barn. I would not have believed it if I had not seen it!
Barn sits on a hill...I plan to rebuild...probably have rebuilt due to time constraints.
Courious as to your thoughts...I plan on fully enclosing the new barn with doors and probably concreting in the posts too! Other ideas?
Appreciate your thoughts.
Reaver - Indiana

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Bill(Wis)

12-08-2006 15:01:39




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 Re: OT - barn blown up and down in reply to Reaver, 12-06-2006 15:52:05  
Your answers(s) are below. Of course, if you rebuild a shed with doors, and then forget to close the doors, (even just once) the whole thing could blow up again. Something I learned from my dad when I was about seven years old. Close the doors on sheds and barns.



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Mike (WA)

12-07-2006 08:24:50




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 Re: OT - barn blown up and down in reply to Reaver, 12-06-2006 15:52:05  
We are not a high wind area in western Washington, but code here is 4 feet deep on the poles, and either set in concrete or compacted crushed rock. I don't like concrete because of the rot factor, but the crushed rock works fine.



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Triplerange

12-07-2006 05:38:34




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 Re: OT - barn blown up and down in reply to Reaver, 12-06-2006 15:52:05  
In School they taught us how to design for wind pressure. With open sided buildings the wind can create uplift. Unfortunately it can also happen with closed walls. If it creates enough to resist the weight of the building plus the friction force of the soil on the poles, there she goes! Wish you would have took a video of what was happening...would have been great educational footage. To prevent a similar occurance, drill a hole through the bottom of the pole and put a 1/2" diam. pipe through it so about 6" sticks out either side or bolt on a 2x4 crossways. Put 1 bag sacrete down the hole when you backfill. Sorry for your loss.

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NE IA Dave

12-06-2006 22:15:38




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 Re: OT - barn blown up and down in reply to Reaver, 12-06-2006 15:52:05  
I started in 65 in school building etc. I find the coments very interesting. In all that time never lost a building for any reason other than one tornado that took every building for three miles. This time a large two story barn landed on my addition and did major damage. I'm not so sure it has been all luck, Many many open sided sheds in our area, usualy open to the south. Bracing is many times overlooked, knee / diaganal / truss braces etc. I have walked away from many opertunities when I insisted on all the bracing etc. as If They can't afford to over kill it the first time, they don't realy want me on there job. A safe bet is when rebuilding it isn't such a big deal. I have been in the posisition numerous times, such as -- Come rebuild a building that has failed (usualy snow load)with all the bracing and send the original builder my bill.

Now I certianly expect problems from the first buildings I did years ago, because the poles are indeed rotted off. Weather a post is incased in concrete or not, it will detereate unless you used the old type of creasote poles. That is on a first time use only also because once they are moved the deteration process will start.

You will probably do yourself a favor by cementing the posts in provided the poles are attatched by either rebar at the bottom or the short 2 x 6 near the bottom.

Concrete cookies will speed up the pole setting and be alot cheaper, you can make them youself if you like ahead of time. Two 1/2 inch rebar forming very large staples with the flat loop of the home made staple (3 ft on all 4 sides of the pole) under the concrete cookie. Thus the wind will have to lift the concrete cookie (that is under your pole 16" diameter) out of the ground. The poles will shear first, and is very inexpensive.

Beware of many of these pro built buildings as they have lots of experiance also in cutting costs. Check your state laws as to what lifetime means in years. Leave you pistol at home when asking however. For istance in a nearby state lifetime house siding in the court of law is seven years (no this is not a typo error)

Then you must also understand the terms pro rated, and warranty (usualy realy refers to materials only) again leave the pistol at home. Warrenty papers years ago had some purpose but that was prior to indoor plumbing, and besides the Sears cataloge didn't cost you anyting, and was perhaps softer on your rear end.

Many times you have altered the building by bumping it with a skid loader, having cattle manure on the poles,or steel, or perhaps in the past you may have high winds. SORRY SIR AGAIN.

Now you could read your contract a dozen times, but if something goes wrong the courts usualy can be made aware of many factors that are not in the control of the building manufacture. And many times have nothing to do as to why the building failed.

Wind shear, and snow overload are bad boys no doubt, but can be greatly reduced if precautions are taken. A joke at our local lumber yard is ---Isn't it odd that winds tend to search out and level trailer houses, and then go a block or two to the new houses and manage to change directions to lift the entire roof off the modulars.

I certianly do not know local codes in your area, and they are very lax in mine. I however have a dificult time with poles three foot in the ground. NE IA Dave

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paul

12-06-2006 21:56:24




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 Re: OT - barn blown up and down in reply to Reaver, 12-06-2006 15:52:05  
Had a shed in the neighborhood do the same a year ago, machinery sat there nice as could be, eumpled pile of sheetmetal & poles in the bean field.

80+ mph wind blast either caved in the doors or the doors were open, & it parachuted right up.

I think 3 feet was pretty shallow for a post barn, 4 feet is what they say around here. Otherwise I think it was the open side that got to your building.

--->Paul

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Reaver

12-06-2006 20:50:18




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 Re: OT - barn blown up and down in reply to Reaver, 12-06-2006 15:52:05  
Well...the main reason I did not concrete in post before was due to many saying it would rot the posts off. Are you saying that nailing a treated 2 by 4 stub on the bottom will be enough to hold it? As I said this barn probably be built by someone else...what is standard dept on poles by builders?
Reaver



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JOHN HARMON

12-06-2006 20:40:49




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 Re: OT - barn blown up and down in reply to Reaver, 12-06-2006 15:52:05  
If and when your new posts are installed consider installing anti-lift bars on the bottom of each pole. Drill a 1" hole about 6" up from the bottom of the Pole.Then drill another one at a 90' just above the other one. Drive a 12" Pc. of 3/4" rebar thru each hole and Concrete in the pole imbedding the Rebar in the concrete before back filling.Open sided sheds are a liability as you have found out. Good Luck,John

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Don L C

12-06-2006 19:16:01




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 Re: OT - barn blown up and down in reply to Reaver, 12-06-2006 15:52:05  
The fact is the strong wind got inside the barn and the barn acted as a parashute, lifted the barn out of the ground..... ..needed doors.....



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Bill in NorthCentral PA

12-06-2006 18:41:53




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 Re: OT - barn blown up and down in reply to Reaver, 12-06-2006 15:52:05  
When designing steel buildings (which get their large scale economics on critical engineering) if one side is open, (no siding, girts, etc.), the building costs more due to the increase in steel structure.

Close it in with siding and doors and don"t worry again.

Bill



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MF#1

12-06-2006 18:30:58




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 Re: OT - barn blown up and down in reply to Reaver, 12-06-2006 15:52:05  
"Sits on a hill.." Reminds me of a barn my uncle had, on top of a hill, ran North-South, prevailing winds are SouthWest. He lost each side of the roof and the whole roof during three separate storms. "Lift" can be a problem when you don"t need it. Neighbor lost a big pole barn during that same storm last Friday, just built a couple of months ago by pro"s. The roof pealed off then the end got pushed in, what a mess! Might want to call the local University Extension office and see if they have any pointers for your area. Remember the Titanic was built by Professionals, the Ark was built by an amateur.

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Eric SEI

12-06-2006 18:21:26




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 Re: OT - barn blown up and down in reply to Reaver, 12-06-2006 15:52:05  
Sounds like it was really well built. My question is what was the roof pitch? A couple years ago a hurricane hit near Miami (hit Homestead AFB) and they said a lot of the damage to houses was caused by the roof pitches. If the roof pitch is right the wind creates lift just like an airplane wing, and the building tries to fly away. A steeper pitch was required to prevent this from happening.



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vitzarus

12-06-2006 17:14:44




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 Re: OT - barn blown up and down in reply to Reaver, 12-06-2006 15:52:05  
Beav, I"m sorry about that happening. I think you guys built it better than many would consider. I"ve a similar situation and many can learn from your experience. When the wind on a hill decides to be somehow directed at a stucture it has to be a concrete wedge type wall or quanson design where it blows over. I would think an open structure less vunerable but the innards still allow that parachute effect.Strangely if the roof hadn"t been so secure...

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mjbrown

12-06-2006 16:48:47




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 Re: OT - barn blown up and down in reply to Reaver, 12-06-2006 15:52:05  
My thoughts are that you have a lot of horsepower (wattage) blowing by your place. You should investigate a wind turbine. Many states offer cost shareing especially for farms.



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Dan-IA

12-06-2006 16:32:31




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 Re: OT - barn blown up and down in reply to Reaver, 12-06-2006 15:52:05  
I'm betting there was no windbreak of any kind on the south side. I have a neighbor with a similar structure. It'd probably be long gone too, but it has an old barn to the south, about 200 feet away.

One thing you should really consider is either leaving it open, or closing it up. That is to say, the long walls, I'd either put steel on both of them or not, not one of each.



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motrack

12-06-2006 16:24:22




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 Re: OT - barn blown up and down in reply to Reaver, 12-06-2006 15:52:05  
what part of Indiana are you from? Im just east of Indy and the wind just striped shingles off the roofs out my way.



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evielboweviel

12-06-2006 16:18:26




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 Re: OT - barn blown up and down in reply to Reaver, 12-06-2006 15:52:05  
DON'T CONCRETE THE POSTS they will rot away. put a concrete pad under them and nail a 2x sideways on them down in the hole. the 2x gives a lot more resistance to pulling out of the ground. if you insist on one side open like the last one probably use deadmen or srew anchors and cable up to roof trusses for tie downs
Ron



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doogdoog

12-06-2006 16:10:44




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 Re: OT - barn blown up and down in reply to Reaver, 12-06-2006 15:52:05  
Aloha, I would think that doors would help and not create a parachute effect from the wind. Wind is known to become stronger when coming over a mountain and picking up speed on the other side. I would think that this is the case with your structure on the side of a hill.

Mahalo,
doogdoog



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K.B.-826

12-06-2006 15:57:05




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 Re: OT - barn blown up and down in reply to Reaver, 12-06-2006 15:52:05  
Wow. It's amazing how powerful nature can be. I'm no expert, but would it have helped to have your poles deeper than three feet?



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Glenn F.

12-06-2006 16:47:56




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 Re: OT - barn blown up and down in reply to K.B.-826, 12-06-2006 15:57:05  
I agree with the poles being deeper than 3'. I built an addition on the side of my barn ten years ago and since I was doing the job myself and all, I dropped the poles down 6'(NE WI). However, I think the answer is to have some sort of windbreak...line of pine trees, etc. Man's sandcastles are no match for Mother Nature.

Glenn F.



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Brett in KS

12-06-2006 16:41:51




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 Re: OT - barn blown up and down in reply to K.B.-826, 12-06-2006 15:57:05  
I'm with you, I think the minimum depth for a pole shed pole should be at least 4'

Brett



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