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Detroit diesel parts

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BSer

02-25-2006 16:16:18




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We use 4-71's in some of our loaders.We want to freshen them and are looking for a parts source for aftermarket parts,including fuel pumps and waterpumps. Can anyone suggest a source? We are shopping price...any help appreciated




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billyiron

02-25-2006 17:19:37




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 Re: Detroit diesel parts in reply to BSer, 02-25-2006 16:16:18  
Dons Diesel in Kansas,,hes got a web site,,,



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NC Wayne

02-25-2006 16:43:19




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 Re: Detroit diesel parts in reply to BSer, 02-25-2006 16:16:18  
Not to sound like a smart a-- but when you say freshen up what exactly are you wanting to do? I've never heard of anyone changing out parts just to "freshen up" an engine unless they actually needed to be changed. If the fuel pump is still pumping and not leaking then why change it? If the water pump is still pumping and not leaking, why change it? Same goes for the internal parts. If you tear it down and check the wear and everything still falls within specs then why change parts that Detroit says are still fine? You can do a decent check of the injectors with a soft faced mallet. Fill it with fuel then the injector by the barrel and the upper casting, making sure not to get your fingers in front of the nozzel, and hit it with the mallet. You ca usually tell wether it's injecting a mist like it's supposed to or if it's spraying large drops. You could even take them in and have them professionally checked, if you don't want to check them this way, and if their good, use them... Like I said, not trying to be a smart a-- but if it ain't broke, don't fix it. As far as the parts you might need, bite the bullet and buy genuine Detroit parts. I tried aftermarket injectors, etc and at least half the times I did something like this, trying to save the customer money, it cost me when I wound up having to get new parts from Detroit to replace the ones that didn't come from them and started giving problems. Good luck.

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jdemaris

02-25-2006 17:32:09




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 Re: Detroit diesel parts in reply to NC Wayne, 02-25-2006 16:43:19  
I can't speak for the other guy about his intentions, but I certainly do it with my tractors, cars, and trucks. Isn't that what some people call preventitive maintenance? If I know a fuel transfer pump has over 100K miles on it, with a road vehicle, I change it. I call that cheap insurance for $35. I just changed all the fuel injectors in my Ford F250 turbo-diesel - and it was running fine. They had over 150K miles on them, and I'd rather change them now then deal with it 1000 miles from home. With every one of my diesel trucks (I've got five), I pull the injection pumps off every 200K miles, pull the pumps apart, and reseal, rebuild, or replace them - and every time so far, they were running fine when I tore them down. I can say, I've never one go bad on me, and I've never been "dead on the road." I admit though, I know how to work on pumps. If I had to pay $500-$1000 for a pump, I might wait until it quit. One problem is, if you wait until it quits on the road somewhere, you'll probably have to wait for parts and pay top dollar. With tractors and power units - I check water-pumps whenever I think of it. If I find one that's getting a loose bearing, I change it or rebuild it before it leaks or flies apart, not after. I had one come apart once years ago (actually a fan-bearing) on a 3-53 Detroit Diesel and the fan went through a $600 radiator. In regard to checking injectors in the way you describe, yes that will tell you it works, or it does not - and not much more. It's just as easy to check it properly on a nozzle rater, and by doing so, you can predict how long it's going to last into the future. In some circumstances, you might not care - but sometimes it DOES matter. It's the same mentality when you pull a good running engine apart for one reason or another, but once in there - what do you do? Let's say there's minor wear, but it ran fine - yet you've already spent the time taking it apart. I go through this kind of sh*t all the time. Do you put it together as is and see how long it will go, or renew even mildly worn parts as insurance? It's even more problematic when doing it for a customer - especially one that does not want to spend any money, yet will complain four years later if anything goes wrong. I see nothing wrong or unusual with either mindset as long as you're willing to accept the consequences of your actions, or lack of action.

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NC Wayne

02-25-2006 18:35:03




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 Re: Detroit diesel parts in reply to jdemaris, 02-25-2006 17:32:09  
Working on heavy equipment for a living I understand what your saying about preventative maintance and I agree to a certain extent. There are things that you can do, when your doing all your own work, that you couldn't or wouldn't normally do otherwise. Then there are certain things that you do as preventative maintenance that are "standard" no matter what machine or engine your working on. The first thing is to keep the machinery serviced. Just doing this can prolong the life tremendously. I spent 6 years in the Navy where I saw pumps that never gave a minutes problem torn down and "inspected" because a certain PM time interval ran out while the one next to it was vibrating and acting up but it's PM cycle wasn't due yet. That, to me was a huge waste of money. True there are common sense things like if you change one bad injector you need to change them all. This is preventative not in that you changed the "good" injectors before they went bad, it's done because having one new injector and however many old ones will cause the "fresh" cylinder to carry more than it's share of the load potentially causing more problems in the future. Still in all but the most extreem cases I just can't see arbitrarily changing out a working part that you can measure or otherwise check/test just to have a new one. You can say what you want but the chances of either going bad aren't much better than 50-50 either way. For instance I recently changed out a turbo that was dragging on a small CAT engine. I installed a brand new turbo from CAT and it started slobbering oil within three miuntes of starting the engine, and in answer to your question, yes I did prelube it. I've changed a full set of Detroit injectors for the reason stated above and had two new ones lock up within a week. If I'd simply changed the one then there wouldn't have been any more injector problems but the new ones were bad too.In a case like this though it's danged if you do and danged if you don't. I admit there are times when doing a job for a customer when I know it'll be more in labor for me to check or test each individual piece than the cost of new and in those cases yes they get new parts because it's cheaper for them in the long run. I'm not worried about running "used" parts, if their good by the Mfg's specs, but nlike some outfits, I'm not out to line my own pockets with new parts markup, excessive labor, etc, I'm in it for the customer. Do them right and they'll always come back. In this case BSer was asking about a Detroit. Both the fuel and water pumps on a Detroit have weep holes that let you know if the shaft seals are leaking. If their not leaking and the fuel pressure is fine and the engine is cooling, why spend several hundred dollars to "freshen them up" especially when he already states that money is an issue. As for the internals Detroit gives a detailed exam procedure for all the internal parts with max or minimum wear limits. If your dong all the work yourself and the engine has say 5000 hours on it and the parts are still at 90% to 100% then why change them. I've seen "good" cranks break but I've never changed one just to make sure it doesn't. Basically preventative maintenance is good but there is a limit between preventative maintenance and wasteful spending. Where that limit is drawn has to be based on alot of factors. Knowing them all about each individual situation is half the game, and the rest is gonna be based on the past experience of the only person that can really make the call and that is the man working on the machine at the time.

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jdemaris

02-25-2006 20:18:45




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 Re: Wasting parts in reply to NC Wayne, 02-25-2006 18:35:03  
I don't think I disagree with much of that. There are certain parts on specific engines that have anticipated life spans. When you know the history of machine, you can plan ahead a little, check and maybe replace some parts during slow season (winter around here). Some parts you cannot check without total disassembly - fuel injection pumps fall into that catagory. Some pumps tend to last 1,000,000 miles and some tend to last 80,000. Take one case-in-point. I just bought a truck a few weeks ago. 1994 Ford F250 4WD 7.3 turbo-diesel. It has 221,000 miles on it, the previous owner kicked-the-bucket and there are no service records. It runs perfect and looks well cared for - spent most of its life pulling a horse-trailer. I want to use the truck for long trips - so what do I do? (I don't really know). For all I know, the pump and injectors could have been done 30K miles ago - same goes for many other things. So, I can drive it and see what happens - or perhaps waste some time and money, and start pulling things apart. I already pulled all the injectors, they tested fine (low pressure though) and were dated Sept 1993. Do they have over 200K miles on them? Now, if they had new tips put in at some point in time, the dates wouldn't change, so who knows? My mindset is, it's winter - and I want this thing ready to drive this summer and be reliable. So, I put new injectors in. The injection pump no longer has the paint-seal marks on the top screws, so I know it's been apart at least once. So, I'll leave it alone. If the truck was a little older, the Roosamaster pump would have a plastic governor ring that is prone to failure - and I'd pull it apart to check. But, they were discontinued around 1985. I'll also pull all the driveshafts and check the ujoints, front and rear wheel bearings, all the brakes, etc. The water pump has a loose shaft and I've already bought a new one. For $48 new, it's not worth trying to rebuild it. I'm sure I'll wind up replacing a few parts that have more miles left in them. Funny thing that relates to this. The last Deere dealership I worked at. We had to follow orders, and many good parts were wasted. I won't go into details, but I saw brand new 4020 engine blocks thrown out, new cylinder heads chucked for minor imperfections, tons of good used parts thrown out including powershift transmissions, reversers out of 430s, 440s, and 350 crawlers, and more. We also threw out a couple of good-running, almost new Yanmar diesels out of Deere tractors that were replaced under warranty but had nothing wrong with them (that's another story). We had a large amount of new old-stock two-cylinder tractor and engine parts - all left over from a previous bought-out dealership. One day, I was ordered to clean it all out, bring it all to the scrapyard, and make sure it all got destroyed. This was late 70s and early 80s. Two-cylinder John Deeres were still being used on local farms, they weren't really considered collector's items. So left-over, slow-moving new parts for 1930s-1940s Deere tractors weren't considered particularly valuable. Complete used tractors e.g. As, Bs, Ls, even GPs and BOs were often only worth $50 -$250 on trade-in or as-is resale. Anyway, to make my painfully long story a little shorter - the big John Deere strike happened. It was a show of force by the United Auto Workers Union. They wanted to cripple Deere Company and put the fear of the Lord into Ford and General Motors - which they did. Deere Co. was crippled, and so were most of the dealers throughout the US. For over half a year, no new parts were available from Deere. Keep in mind, the Internet did not exist yet - for parts searching - if it did things would have been different. We had a modem we laid a telephone on, and that would talk to Deere Company in Syracuse, and do a convoluted parts search with limited success. That's when things really changed at our dealership. We started using "junk" parts and really doing some scrounging. We also started buying good running used tractors, dozers, log skidders, etc. and stripping them for parts. We rebuilt diesel engines with used or aftermarket parts, we started rebuilding pistons (knurling and regrooving), welding worn crankshafts, etc. To tell you the truth, it was kind of fun. For a while, we were REAL mechanics, and not just parts changers. So yeah, I understand the waste involved when parts are changed "just for the h*ll of it."

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