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Timber sales

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Dan in Ohio

12-04-2005 12:28:16




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Anyone have experience selling timber from their property? So far I have contacted a service forester and had him do a quick preliminary walk through of my woods. He suggested some problems that need to be solved like access for loading timber onto trucks. He gave me a written description of the whole process and he is highly regarded as a forester in my area. What else do I need to consider before I proceed? What pitfalls do I need to look out for? Lastly remember my home sits on these wooded acres. Thanks for your comments.

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Doyle Alley

12-07-2005 08:36:48




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 Re: Timber sales in reply to Dan in Ohio, 12-04-2005 12:28:16  
I'll add one more comment to the frey. In addition to the other considerations, you have to know exactly what you want the land to be after the cutters are gone. I.E. Do you want a perpetual forrest (selective logging), or a forrest "crop" (clearcut and replant), or a non-forrest pasture/cropland (clearcut and bulldoze stumps)? Only by knowing what kind of property you want down the road can you make a good decision on how to log it.

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Smokey Bear

12-05-2005 18:48:50




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 Re: Timber sales in reply to Dan in Ohio, 12-04-2005 12:28:16  
Dan, first know what you don't know. From your description you are really open to get taken.

Since I work in state forestry I may be a bit biased but I have seen lots of sales go wrong when
a well meaning landowner meets someone less than fully ethical.

First, talk to your service forester a bit more about what needs to be done to properly manage the forest. Write it down as an independant view which is probably right.
Next, take this information in hand when you contact and interview several consultant foresters ( not brokers!). Choose one that is more interested in the long term care of the forest than todays dollars. Spend some time to do a reference check on the best candidates, then hire the best of this lot of consultants to represent you. (this may seem like a lot of work but not doing it can have high costs!) If any consultant wants to purchase your wood "watch out", also if they do not bid out the wood just walk away.
There are lots of tricks to the "trade" and a landowner who only sells wood once in life time is asking for a bad deal.
Be darned sure you have a good contract with the consultant and with the logger. If things get to court the only things that matter are those that are written.
Selling timber can be a great experience for you and for the land if you invest some time up front.
Good luck!
Ole Smokey.

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Richard Scott

12-05-2005 17:20:55




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 Re: Timber sales in reply to Dan in Ohio, 12-04-2005 12:28:16  
One thing I forgot to mention in regard to horse logging in relation to other systems is the move-in-move out cost. If you just have a small amount of timber to cut, horses can be the cheapest way to go because it costs almost nothing to move them in & out, while it might cost hundreds of dollars to move a large Cat or excavator.

If you need to have something done with the slash, however, it's real tough to get horses to pile the stuff. So if a machine is needed for the slash, don't bother logging with the nags.

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RodinNS

12-05-2005 04:54:33




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 Re: Timber sales in reply to Dan in Ohio, 12-04-2005 12:28:16  
I would also suggest that you talk more with the forester or logger or who ever you are dealing with. Be sure that they understand what you want done; what you want the place looking like when they're done. Once the tree is cut, it's too late to complain. Be sure that all local regulations regarding forest practices are followed in your area as well, or that could come back to bite you.
To some degree, it may help you to understand the market for the wood you have, the pricing, and so on, but you've really got to have a pretty good grip on it all to be of much benifit to yourself. Most people only dig into it far enough to think they have a fortune's worth of timber, and then get mad when Joe down the road got 4 times what they got..... The reason being that Joe had top quality saw logs and the guy complaining had firewood.
I don't know what soft/hardwood saw logs are running in your area. However, I do know that pulpwood prices in North America today are generallly at the cost of, or less than the cost of production for loggers. Veneer prices fluctuate due to markets and supply. It's also significant to remember that the Veneer that will come from a typical stand is probably no more than 1-2%, and of that, there are very very very few 1000 dollar trees. You might see one or two in your woodlot, depending on species and the stand itself.
If you do the research into local pricing, the quality of your stand, the various harvesting methods, the costs associated with running a crew, the insurance costs, trucking, and the costs of the cleanup afterwards and reforestation you may find that the business isn't quite as lucrative as some would have you believe. There's a lot more to it than the mill price. Best of luck.

Rod

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Punchie

12-05-2005 04:21:18




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 Re: Timber sales in reply to Dan in Ohio, 12-04-2005 12:28:16  
HI Dan

Western PA here. This maybe a little long but please read this.

I was looking last year at cutting some fire wood. Have been hearing that Cherry was high and didn't want to cut any good timber trees for fire wood. So I started to look online about timber How to measure and how to cut and prices PER/M not a 50/50 , 60/40 0r anything else. Timber is sold at 1000 price be it at stump, yard(maybe truck) or board ft. after cut. Basically you can look at a truck load and tell what is what. I'll look at timber prices and get back to you, in an other post. Please let me know by e-mail if you wish for me to tell you what to look for and how to measure trees at B/H .

Teddy P.S. getting late need to run!!

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Raymond Bagwell

12-04-2005 20:28:47




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 Re: Timber sales in reply to Dan in Ohio, 12-04-2005 12:28:16  
I had a forrester look at the timber then took his suggestions and marked what trees I wanted cut. I had a lawyer draw up a contract with the timber cutter. I got 60 he got 40. A lot of share cutters have their own contract and it is not much to it. I required all tops be moved out of the fields, torn up ground be smothed over and grass sowed. I required the timber man have liability insurance as well as worksmens comp for his crew. The timber cutter was responsible for any property dammage. Just cover yourself whichever way you go. You don't to spend your timber money paying legal fees. There are a lot of them in my area operating fron week to week.

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farmermatt

12-04-2005 19:00:18




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 Re: Timber sales in reply to Dan in Ohio, 12-04-2005 12:28:16  
The first bit of information we all need to know is What kind of trees are you talking? There is a Big difference in timber prices. Here in NE Kansas I have absolutly no experience in Pine, Fir or other "building" lumber. Hardwoods are what we have to market. Horses would be much more useful in our situation than would be in more of a large volume harvest, though we dont use them nor do I see the need. Talking with the forester is a great first step. I hope the forester is state employed and isnt working on the side of the timber buyers. Our latest harvest (contracted Mar 1 05 to Mar 1 06) was bid cash upfront. Not sure if thats the best way or not but it was my dads decision to make. Veneer hardwood logs should not be harvested 50/50. Recomendations of the forest service is closer to 80 owner, 20 logger on the best logs. Individual trees can be worth $1000. Take your time, talk to lots of people and have a strong contract in regards to damages and ecspecially payment. Timber is big buisness with lots at stake so definitly shop around for your logger. Good Luck
Matt

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kyhayman

12-04-2005 18:14:58




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 Re: Timber sales in reply to Dan in Ohio, 12-04-2005 12:28:16  
I've sold timber by the boundary, through consulting foresters, and on shares. Depends on the the stand but all and all I came out as well selling it on the halves. Logger was local, it was pretty common saw timber, he did it all including hauling my share to the mill. I checked the load counts and every one was right. Checks were split 50/50 and prices matched what was in the newspaper. He pushed all the tops back into the woods. Been selling them for firewood since '91 (I get 20% of the wood payable in wood or cash at $50 a load, as long as theres propane to be had, I'll take the cash).

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Richard Scott

12-04-2005 16:24:09




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 Re: Timber sales in reply to Dan in Ohio, 12-04-2005 12:28:16  
Dan,

Talk to your service forester some more.

Here are some things to consider:

1. Clearcut vs. selective. In spite of all the bad press clearcuts have gotten from the environmental community and from an ignorant media, there are places, timber types and / or stand conditions where clearcutting is the best method for the environment. This is a site and stand specific decision and should not be made based on suggestions from people who have never seen your stand and know nothing about species, stand age, condition, etc. The decision to clearcut vs. selective logging vs. thinning or perhaps shelterwood cutting is most properly driven by what kind of stand you want to create. If you want to grow a species of tree that needs lots of light, the decision is usually to clearcut. If your desired trees can stand shade, you may regenerate by selective logging. If the stand is immature, you thin. Some people call thinning "selective logging" but they are not the same thing and different trees may be left under different methods, so get good, knowledgeable advice on how to manage your timber.

2. Horse logging costs about 50% more than tractor logging in our area, sometimes even more, depending on the timber. A track hoe (excavator) often does the best and cheapest job and is what many loggers in the Pacific Northwest are going to. Horses and tractors have to make many trips in and out of the woods to get the logs out, each trip doing some damage, even with horses which exert a lot of compaction pressure per square inch. An excavator relays the logs, making one or just a few trips in and out of the woods and usually walks on top of the slash, minimizing compaction damage. Excavators typically exert less than 4 PSI, dozers 6-8 and rubber tired skidders and tractors often 15 lbs or more. With uncontrolled tractor logging, you can get up to 40% or more of the area compacted; we had an excavator operating in one unit in the winter when we get lots of rain, and had only compaction on 2% of the ground. The excavator also piles the slash as he goes. (Just don't let him compact the slash piles too tight or you could end up with the problem I have of piles that won't dry out.)

3. There ARE honest loggers, you may have to search to find one. Just because Joe down the road used "Cut & Run Logging" and was satisfied does not constitute a valid recomendation, as Joe may not know he was taken to the cleaners. Ask around a lot. Think about a deal where the logger works on a percentage, then his motivation parallels yours for getting the most value from the timber. Account for each truck load and make sure you get copies of all the scale sheets.

4. See if there is a forest landowner's association of some kind in your area, you can get good info from them. Your service forester should know. If you haven't contacted the Ohio State Forestry office, to go>Link

5.>Link Make sure you know what your legal obligations are for slash disposal and reforestation. Around here, if the slash is light enough that you could plant through it, you generally don't have to dispose of it. But if you pile it, you may have to burn the piles.

6. Learn what you can about herbicides if you are going to plant. They make a BIG difference around here.

Good luck!

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Everett Mi

12-04-2005 14:26:14




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 Re: Timber sales in reply to Dan in Ohio, 12-04-2005 12:28:16  
Yes, KC Horses. We had our woods(near Kalkaska) select cut. A man from weyhauser marked the trees. A cutter that works for them did the work. Was satified. Left brush as cover for wildlife. wasn1t pertty but now have partrige and rabbits



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brian 1

12-04-2005 14:54:05




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 Re: Timber sales in reply to Everett Mi, 12-04-2005 14:26:14  
Several people are doing select cutting in this area and using horses. Low impact on timber. Multiple bids through a forester will get the most money, he will earn his 10% and it is well worth it to have someone looking out for you. A complete inventory, marking, contracts, and bids are the only way to know you aren't being had. Little old lady around here sold a nice timber for about 20% of what it should have made. Too late now.

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Dan in Ohio

12-04-2005 14:13:23




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 Re: Timber sales in reply to Dan in Ohio, 12-04-2005 12:28:16  
Steve, It sounds like your experience is similiar to mine as far as the marking and bid process goes.

Coldiron, According to my forester I will be paid in full before any trees are cut and he supervises the whole process. I showed the forester a recent blow-down and asked what would happen to this tree? He said he would X the tree which means they could take it if so desired and the X'd trees would be part of the bid.

John, I would be having a sellective harvest as I also make maple syrup and would like to improve my sugar bush if possible. A neighbor also used a timber company that used horses(alot of amish around close). Definitely like the idea of using horses. My dads woods sill has scares made in the sixties.

Thanks for all the replies.

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wayne2

12-04-2005 14:06:07




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 Re: Timber sales in reply to Dan in Ohio, 12-04-2005 12:28:16  
Excellent question and excellent answers(horses?) Find out as much as you can-it eventually is totally your SHOW. If you must pull into loggers yards ask questions!! Knowledge is money in your pocket!! DON"T BE A HICK!!! Wayne



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Steve/TN

12-04-2005 13:27:31




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 Re: Timber sales in reply to Dan in Ohio, 12-04-2005 12:28:16  
Dan, I have contacted a timber broker. He cruises and marks my timber. He tallys it and offers it to cutters for bid. He knows the market. He has advised me to wait till late winter-early spring to sell as this is usually the best time. He gets 10%; the more I make, the more he makes. He will write any contract that I want for the timber buyer such as access, clean up, etc. Others have told me that this is the way to go.

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Coldiron

12-04-2005 13:20:03




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 Re: Timber sales in reply to Dan in Ohio, 12-04-2005 12:28:16  
Dan, Are they going to yard the felled trees to the skid road or go in and pull them out with a skidder? Clearcut or selective cutting? Are the trucks coming in with self loaders? Keep count on the loads that leave your place. Find out what the criteria for acceptable saw logs is and make sure that they dont take culls out in the truck which the mills use anyway but just dont pay the seller for. The longer the log the more valuable. Use the culls for firewood. Who is going to be responsible for cleaning up the logging debris and burning the piles? What is acceptable as a cleanup? Be real careful because the small operations are not called Gypo Loggers for nothing. No matter what they tell you, the last load that leaves the property is NOT traditionally the truckers. I got stuck on that the first time I ever had one come work for me. LOL These are just a few of the things to look out for. I am sure the others will think of a lot of things too.

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John No Mi

12-04-2005 13:19:22




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 Re: Timber sales in reply to Dan in Ohio, 12-04-2005 12:28:16  
If you can go look at the condition of the woods where whoever you choose has been before. The guy we had in skinned a lot of the maples I would not let him cut as we make maple syrup. What happens to the tree tops? Is fire wood cut and the brush piled? If we ever have the woods harvesred again it will be by someone who uses horses.



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KCTractors

12-04-2005 13:54:56




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 Re: Timber sales in reply to John No Mi, 12-04-2005 13:19:22  
John! Horses, do you know what century we are in. Cut your fire-wood and pile the brush!You might just as will have the logger fire-up your stove right away. The logger is not there for a good time, but to make a living, like every-body else. I know, I drive a log truck for a living and I have to work 60-65 hours a week to make a living!



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