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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

gas tank welding- fill with water?

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LK

09-22-2005 12:38:38




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I am restoring a John Deere late styled B. I cannot get the old fuel strainer out because the threaded insert has broken free of the tank and just spins. I cannot get enough of a grip on it to hold it still while I turn the strainer.

What it needs is to be welded/brazed/soldered to the surrounding metal.

I've read lots and lots about dangers of flame and gas tanks. But tell me if this is likely to be a problem:

I'll fill the tank completely with water- rubber gasket on the filler cap to make it hold water when upside down- fill up entirely from the underside, through the old strainer (this will take a while!)

Then lightly arc weld the spining insert to the surrounding metal. I have a nice mig and can use a low current setting.

See any problems with this?

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sod

09-23-2005 16:16:50




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 Re: gas tank welding- fill with water? in reply to LK, 09-22-2005 12:38:38  
Some chips of dry ice and a little bit of water and the fog (which is carbon dioxide) will displace all the oxygen and there will be NO chance of an explosion.
good luck
sod



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NC Wayne

09-22-2005 23:35:14




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 Re: gas tank welding- fill with water? in reply to LK, 09-22-2005 12:38:38  
Water works great if it is completely full so there isn't an air pocket at the point your applying the heat to. The gas molecules get into the metal so it doesn't matter how much you clean and flush and let the tank "air out" you'll never get all of them out. Using shop air to "vent" the tank is just asking for an explosion. With a constant source of fresh air, which coming from most compressors also contains some oil vapor as well, going into the tank there is no sure way to know that the concentration of fuel vapors won't get large enough, when you start heating, to utilize all that fresh air and oil vapor to create a MASSIVE BOOM. The safest way I know of, if you don't like the water idea, is to use dry ice. Get a pound or so of pellets and drop them into the tank. Once the pellets sublimate and fill the tank with CO2 vapor you can start your work. Using dry ice has several advantages. First the CO2 displaces the oxygen and any fuel vapors so it won't support combustion and explode, second it provides a cooling effect on the tank, third it is good for repairing a tank with a leak on the bottom because being dry you don't even have to remove the tank from the machine, and finally it's a "clean" fill so it leaves no residue or moisture inside the tank. I've seen and heard of many of tanks being repaired using this method, including tanker size tanks where the welder had to be able to access the inside of the tank (with breathing gear) to perform the repair. Good luck.

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Kevin Bismark

09-23-2005 16:57:28




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 Re: gas tank welding- fill with water? in reply to NC Wayne, 09-22-2005 23:35:14  
I like the dry ice idea, of course I would never have any around to try it when I needed to so would end up with the water hose, but it's worth a thought..



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LK

09-23-2005 09:39:15




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 dry ice! now that's a clever idea in reply to NC Wayne, 09-22-2005 23:35:14  
Never heard of that one. Maybe this is why my local welding shop has a sign that says "we have dry ice on hand" (sounds painful to me...)



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doogdoog

09-23-2005 12:07:07




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 Re: dry ice! now that's a clever idea in reply to LK, 09-23-2005 09:39:15  
Aloha, The machine shops use dry ice to assemble parts like a bearing on a shaft. You could also use nitrogen to displace the oxygen.

Mahalo,
doogdoog



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doogdoog

09-22-2005 22:12:25




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 Re: gas tank welding- fill with water? in reply to LK, 09-22-2005 12:38:38  
Aloha, If you must use air, use the air from a shop vacuum cleaner (blowing out) way more cfm. I usually use the water method, with the water running, feel safer that way.

Mahalo,
doogdoog



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Don-Wi

09-22-2005 20:02:12




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 Re: gas tank welding- fill with water? in reply to LK, 09-22-2005 12:38:38  
One of my old high school teachers collects old harleys. He was welding on a tank from a 1940 something or other that hadn't had anything in it for over 20 years. Guess what ????..... ...KAAABOOOOO OOOOM!!!!! !!!! He learned his lesson, and got his hearing back a day later.... Gotta have something in it, I'd rather have water than compressed air. Those gas vapors stay in there well after you think they're gone.

I once had to torch off the old bumper brackets on my dad's F150 and that was right next to the tank. I had him go fill it at the pump first so there wasn't any vapors there. I'm still here so it worked.

I wouldn't recommend welding on a full tank of gas though..... ...
Donovan from Wisconsin

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Don L C

09-22-2005 18:09:50




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 Re: gas tank welding- fill with water? in reply to LK, 09-22-2005 12:38:38  
LK --
Don't need to fill tank with water.....remove the tank and turn it over so you are working on the fitting side up..... clean the area to bare metal.....put a air hose in the fill opening,set air regulator at about 20#.....this will dry the tank and offset the air/fuel persentage so if any it cant burn..... use flux and 95/5 solder.....heat with a large solder/iron about 1" in diameter.....I dave done this to several auto gas tanks that droug on the ground....

NO sparks or flames!

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550Doug

09-22-2005 17:48:20




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 Re: gas tank welding- fill with water? in reply to LK, 09-22-2005 12:38:38  
Has anyone tried an epoxy instead? Like JB weld?



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LK

09-23-2005 09:32:13




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 epoxy- no way in reply to 550Doug, 09-22-2005 17:48:20  
Somebody tried epoxy on this thing. I can tell by looking at it that i could probably get epoxy to seal ok, but I really need to get the old strainer unthreaded from the tank. No way that epoxy would get enough of a grip on the small threaded insert to hold it still while I turn the old strainer out with a pipe wrench.

I cannot even remove the heatshield until i do this. And the strainer is likely not even salvagable- I'll see if i can, but I need to get it off first. So it really demands getting down to bare parts and restoring properly. Once I fix the threaded hole, I'll clean the inside of the tank and coat with that sealer stuff. Then blast, prime and paint the outside of the tank.

I can't believe John Deere didn't feel it neccessary to put any paint at all on the tank- sure it is hidden from view, but that doesn't mean it wont rust!! Me neighbor's A had a 6" rust hole in the TOP of the tank- probably a mouse nest held moisture there for years and it rusted.

The tank has not had any gas in it for about 20 years and there is absolutely no odor of gas, by the way.

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37 chief

09-22-2005 19:53:04




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 Re: gas tank welding- fill with water? in reply to 550Doug, 09-22-2005 17:48:20  
I used JB weld on a stripped aluminum drain plug on one of the aluminum saddle tanks on our volvo truck. and on a leaking fitting on one of my tractors.These were both diesel tanks, but JB weld should also hold up with gas. The area needs to be very clean for the JB weld to stick. Stan



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BushogPapa

09-22-2005 17:36:57




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 Re: gas tank welding- fill with water? in reply to LK, 09-22-2005 12:38:38  
Put a hose from the exhaust of your car or pickup into the gas tank..via a flex-pipe.. It will keep the fumes blown out, and the tank filled with CO2... Just let the exhaust heat the tank, and by then, all the fumes are dilluted and you can weld on it...keep the echaust going into the tank while welding..

Ron..



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Kevin Bismark

09-22-2005 17:59:00




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 Re: gas tank welding- fill with water? in reply to BushogPapa, 09-22-2005 17:36:57  
Yup herd this one also, and herd around the welding supply house a couple of guy"s that had a little problem with this one to, got an old uncle who was a welder for many years and he will not touch a tank unless it is full of water and since he knows a lot more about it than I do I alway"s have done it the way I see the big guns do it, I have never understood why people think you cant weld a tank with water in it, or solder it, you can weld under water if you want to, saw that done many times, at least if you fill a tank with water and have no air pockets you are 100% sure you are safe, I get enough close calls at work so I sure am not going to take any chances when I am working on my own projects..

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Kevin bismark

09-22-2005 17:19:48




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 Re: gas tank welding- fill with water? in reply to LK, 09-22-2005 12:38:38  
I would never strike an arc on a tank unless it was full of water, don't think I would trust the air line deal, saw a guy welding on a diesel fuel tank for a case tractor that way once, and only once, don't think he ever worked again after that, then the guy east of my folks place was welding a nipple into a propane tank, never knew how he tried it, I herd the explosion from about 3 miles away, wasn't much left of the garage, he was on what was left of the garage floor, roof, in the trees, his wife was running around out of her head and the dogs had pieces of him, that must have been 20 years ago, people just have no idea how much energy these tanks have in them when they go, the propane tank will kill you, the gas tank might only loose your arms hands and sight. It's pretty hard for something to explode if it's full of water, just use your head and be careful, you probably have just enough time to know you made a mistake and it's lights out with some of these.. Kevin

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Mike Van

09-22-2005 17:11:20




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 Re: gas tank welding- fill with water? in reply to LK, 09-22-2005 12:38:38  
LK, i've done several with brazing rod & torch. Before I do, I spray as much 409 or Resolve type cleaner into the empty tank, swish it around, wipe it around if theres a hole big enough, rinse 2 or 3 times & weld. Haven't blow one up yet. Did a propane tank too, same methood. The detergent in the cleaner cuts the fumes/vapor much better than plain water ever will.



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RayP(MI)

09-22-2005 16:56:42




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 Re: gas tank welding- fill with water? in reply to LK, 09-22-2005 12:38:38  
Wire welded a automotive gas tank a while back. BUT BEFORE I WELDED IT - I DRAINED THOROUGHLY - THEN PUT A SMALL COMPUTER MUFFIN FAN IN THE OPENING IN THE TOP, AND BLEW AIR THROUGH THE TANK FOR 12 HOURS. Took all the remaining fuel and fumes out. On a practical basis, welding on a tank full of water might be problematic, as water will conduct heat away from weld area and make it difficult to weld. I did use water to test for leaks after welding - had several! Took me several sessions to get a water tight seal.

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thejdman01

09-22-2005 15:37:36




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 Re: gas tank welding- fill with water? in reply to LK, 09-22-2005 12:38:38  
done many with compressed air running through it and just fine. only had problem with one not enough volume of air. if anything let it flash oncce with a torch etc be very careful but never had a problem with compressed air



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Cosmo

09-22-2005 14:24:33




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 Re: gas tank welding- fill with water? in reply to LK, 09-22-2005 12:38:38  
I have brazed more than one and lived to tell it. I let it air dry a day or two after a good washing. Then as I braze I keep a pretty good stream of compressed air blowing in it. Too lean-no explosion, too rich-no explosion. Just right-kaboom.:)



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Mike M

09-22-2005 13:26:22




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 Re: gas tank welding- fill with water? in reply to LK, 09-22-2005 12:38:38  
I would try to clean it out good with a hot water pressure washer. Then I"d dry it real good and then sandblast at least the area needing repaired to clean it good. Then you could fill with some water ? I use a propane torch and acid core solder works real good. Might be really hard to braze or weld as these were soldered when new. I WOULD NOT fill with exhaust,did that once and had it flash on me ! I think the exhaust had combustables in it that lit.

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Allan in NE

09-22-2005 12:49:58




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 Re: gas tank welding- fill with water? in reply to LK, 09-22-2005 12:38:38  
LK,

Flush 'er with a garden hose fer ten minutes to make sure all the fumes are gone. Then, fill 'er up just as you say and have at it.

That's the way the big dogs do it all the time.

Allan



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slim

09-22-2005 13:02:34




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 Re: gas tank welding- fill with water? in reply to Allan in NE, 09-22-2005 12:49:58  
If you do that, fill it ALL the way up. No air pockets. I had a friend that used to braze gas tanks and he had some explode because of air pockets. After a while he quit doing them because he had enough of them exploding.

slim



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Harley

09-22-2005 13:19:03




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 Re: gas tank welding- fill with water? in reply to slim, 09-22-2005 13:02:34  
The day before yesterday I filled one of the 100lb propane cylinders full of water, dumped it and refilled it and let it set over night, then started dutting the bottom out of it with water still in it till I had all the explosive mixture out of it. Building a sandblaster per plans from ebay, and got it done today. Gonna be a blast..... .... Ohhhhh hhh....to use. Harley



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Jerry Cent Mi.

09-22-2005 14:56:15




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 Re: gas tank welding- fill with water? in reply to Harley, 09-22-2005 13:19:03  
Clean real good and go at it with a large copper soidering iron.



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