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Starter fluid

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Fence

11-05-2004 19:36:44

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What would cause a tractor to need starter fluid in order to start it up for the first time in the day? If you go back and start it a hour later it starts. If it sets overnight you have to use starter fluid again!

Thanks

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Wi Craig

11-09-2004 16:23:18

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Re: Starter fluid in reply to Fence, 11-05-2004 19:36:44

As simple as it may sound, had the clearance for the lifters checked. Wow, what a difference. Craig

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RAB

11-06-2004 10:59:02

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Re: Starter fluid in reply to Fence, 11-05-2004 19:36:44

Here is a simple question. Do you regularly make it work hard or does it just "pussy-foot" round with a lawn mower on the back most year round? I mean giving it at least half a day hard plowing.
Odds on the answer is "no". If that is the case, then you possibly have glazed bores, poorly seating rings and low compression, resulting in poor starting. I would expect some oil usage in this condition.
Have you checked the valve clearances lately?. It might just need a service.
Is the thermostat working properly. If the engine is run too cool all the time there could well be build up around the injector nozzles leading to poor starting.
What is the pop pressures for the injectors. If too low it may well manifest itself as poor starting.
Is the pump timed correctly. Should be .....but...if not result can be poor starting.
Will it restart if, on starting in the morning, you immediately stop it before it warms up and then come back to start it in, say, an hours time?
If it is OK afterthe hour or two it may be a leak in the injection system (like posted below or elsewhere}.
Is the battery/charging system up to scratch? Is the starter motor running at a good speed? Either could cause poor starting due to slow cranking.
Not a lot, but just a few points to clear up before we progress deeper with the problem. Could be any of these and several others. Alternatively it may soon need a major overhaul

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Allan in NE

11-06-2004 03:51:24

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Re: Starter fluid in reply to Fence, 11-05-2004 19:36:44

Fence,

Sounds completely normal for a direct injected diesel at this time of year.

Allan

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paul

11-06-2004 03:45:38

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Re: Starter fluid in reply to Fence, 11-05-2004 19:36:44

What tractor?

Gas or diesel?

Does outdoor temp have any effect on this?

What have you tried so far - fuel filter, drain sediment bowl, etc?????

More info!
--->Paul

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Hugh MacKay

11-06-2004 03:15:19

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Re: Starter fluid in reply to Fence, 11-05-2004 19:36:44

Fence: Just read RAB's responce to earlier thread. The tractor may need one of several or all parts rebuilt. I'm not sure what can be done for your comprehension. Answer his damn questions, he may just be able to help you. Carefully read every question in his responce, he needs more info.

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RAB

11-05-2004 23:50:07

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Re: Starter fluid in reply to Fence, 11-05-2004 19:36:44

Fence,
Your problem seems to be a slightly different from your previous post. Your post "can anyone tell me why I have to use starter fluid to start a JD 2130? But, after it runs for a while and I kill it, it will restart right off without starter fluid! But, if it sets overnight I have to use starter fluid to start it again!"

My post, basically needing more information from you, as you were simply saying it would restart OK as soon as you get some heat into the engine.

My post "Could be a number of reasons. Worst scenario is a full recondition ..... (etc)....."

I now reiterate that we either need more information from you so we are not "flying in the dark" or you get yourself a good book on the workings and fault-finding of a compression-ignition engine and match your symptoms with their diagnoses.
RAB

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Fence

11-06-2004 06:22:17

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Re: Starter fluid in reply to RAB, 11-05-2004 23:50:07

I don't know what else to tell you other than what I have said.

The tractor is a model 2130 JD Diesel. It will only start with starter fluid if it has set for a length of time (i.e. overnight). But, once it is started you can restart it after killing it. It has been that way for some time. I was just wondering why it needs the starter fluid. The filter is clean. It does not show excessive smoke, unless under a load, or when reved up. And, then it is normal black (diesel) smoke.

It performs well, I would just like to be able to operate it without the starter fluid.

Thanks for your info.

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11-06-2004 06:48:17

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Re: Starter fluid in reply to Fence, 11-06-2004 06:22:17

How old is the tractor? If compression is low, then you are getting compression in a can to start it. After it warms and has some heat in the engine, then it will start. The starting hard then starting easier all day is the way all diesel are that I have ever been around worked. Have you checked your glow plus or glow plug timer? that is where I would start. Has the injectors been cleaned recently?? You may be getting a poor spray pattern when it is cold. As RAB said, what is the history on this tractor, how long has this been going on, does it do it all the time or just when temperature is below a certain temperature?

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Fence

11-06-2004 06:52:46

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Re: Starter fluid in reply to JT, 11-06-2004 06:48:17

It is a 70's tractor. It has been going on for about a year. It does it year round. It is worse in cold weather. The injectors have not been cleaned, other than injector additives.

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buickanddeere

11-06-2004 09:16:18

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Re: Starter fluid in reply to Fence, 11-06-2004 06:52:46

It needs heat from compression and cranking rpm to ignite the fuel. Too slow or too low psi and there won't be enough heat. A cold engine also absorbs the heat from the compressed air keeping combustion chamber temps below ignition level. The fuel has to be in a fine mist from high pressure injection and working injectors. Odds are with age and hours the engine is lacking all three requirements. Every year about now, cold weather and ether questions start showing up. Have people never heard tell of block heaters? If that engine has been ether abused there could be broken rings or crushed piston ring lands. From there on in the compression will be lower and ether will be required for cool starts.

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Fence

11-06-2004 14:10:16

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Re: Starter fluid in reply to buickanddeere, 11-06-2004 09:16:18

Thanks for all the input. I see that I need to do a lot of checking. I will use you fellas comments as a checklist.

Thanks again.

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Anthony

11-06-2004 09:37:47

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Re: Starter fluid in reply to buickanddeere, 11-06-2004 09:16:18

What is the logical order to check out a problem like this? I have a White 2-70 283 diesel with the same symptoms and every year it gets a little worse. The engine has about 3500 hours, consumes no oil, has good power, excellent oil pressure and doesn't smoke except at low-med rpm idling. Nothing has been rebuilt or serviced in the fuel system except filters, as far a I know. The intake pre-heater is working but doesn't seem to help much except in warmer weather and is hard on the batteries when used for long time period.
What would you do first, compression check with gauge?
Then since injectors are out, have them tested?
If compression is low, pull head?? Would I have to pull pistons/rods to check for cracked rings and/or lands?
If compression is OK, have pump checked, or check timing?
Am I missing something here; diesels are new to me.

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buickanddeere

11-06-2004 09:57:58

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Re: Starter fluid in reply to Anthony, 11-06-2004 09:37:47

You pretty much have the bases covered. Freshened injectors with new tips set to max breaking pressure and find out if the compression pressure is low. Next is cranking rpm. Time and enviroment around mud,manure and moisture increases electrical connection resitance. All fresh clean contact surfaces everywhere. The batteries maybe getting tires as well. Use the highest CCA rated batteries that are "vibration proof" and make certain voltage at the batteries at full throttle is at least 13.8 to 14.2V. Iskra has some monster 5 KW/ 7.5 HP starters to increase the cranking rpm and therefore combustion chamber temps. Last and not least is heat. A block and battery heater is cheap insurance, reduces agrivation/stress/high blood pressure. The engine turns easier, starts sooner & suffers less wear. The elctrical system is less stressed, has more available power and re-charges sooner.

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twopop

11-05-2004 20:30:57

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Re: Starter fluid in reply to Fence, 11-05-2004 19:36:44

depends on what type and model of tractor.i.e. the 30 series john deeres have a check valve in the fuel line,if it leaks fuel back towards the tank,it will not start well the after sitting overnight.

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Weirsdale George

11-05-2004 21:12:28

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Re: Starter fluid in reply to twopop, 11-05-2004 20:30:57

Same sort of thing happens if you have a fuel pump with leaky valves.

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Chris Brown

11-06-2004 04:24:46

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Re: Starter fluid in reply to Weirsdale George, 11-05-2004 21:12:28

I ran into that on a Allis turbo 426 engine. Something in the injector pump would let the fuel drain back and the first start of the day needed a little ether shot or a pull from another tractor.I changed the pump and it cured it.

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