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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

High cost of fuel...Reason?

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Dan in Wisconsi

06-07-2004 07:24:53




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A lot of folks can't understand how we came to have an oil SHORTAGE here in the United states.
Well, there is a very simple answer... Nobody bothered to check the oil. We just didn't know we were getting low.
The reason for that is purely geographical. Our oil is in Texas, Louisiana, California, Oklahoma and Alaska. Our dipsticks are in Washinton, DC.




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Gene Davis (Ga.)

06-08-2004 08:11:52




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 Re: High cost of fuel...Reason? in reply to Dan in Wisconsin, 06-07-2004 07:24:53  
Wasn't a large part of America's petrolum supply used as the main source of supply for the allies in WWII?



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John A

06-08-2004 05:33:33




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 Re: High cost of fuel...Reason? in reply to Dan in Wisconsin, 06-07-2004 07:24:53  
Guys, The basic reason for the shortage is the US doesn't have the Refineries to handle the demand. There hasn't been a Refineriey built in over 30 yrs. So hence the ones here must run at max production. The oil is here or anywhere else we get it. Awhile back I think it was one of the Princes of Saudia was quoted that their country alone could supply the US at our current rate of useage of the next 300 yrs, So it isn't production, it's refineies that are the problem. Do your Homework!
My $.02
Later,
John A.

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BOB

06-08-2004 00:30:22




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 Re: High cost of fuel...Reason? in reply to Dan in Wisconsin, 06-07-2004 07:24:53  
This all sounds good, but I work for an auto maker and we hear that China is taking 30% more oil now than before. All of the major car manufacturors are rushing there and building factories. China is not the only reason but they are somewhat responsible for the increase...



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tlak

06-07-2004 16:53:33




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 Re: High cost of fuel...Reason? in reply to Dan in Wisconsin, 06-07-2004 07:24:53  
Did you'll know that we export oil from the Alaskan pipeline?



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Paul in Mich

06-08-2004 09:35:42




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 Re: Re: High cost of fuel...Reason? in reply to tlak, 06-07-2004 16:53:33  
No, but if you can humm a few bars..... ...Is it to the tune of "We all need someone we can bleed on"?



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Tanklord

06-07-2004 15:57:01




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 Re: High cost of fuel...Reason? in reply to Dan in Wisconsin, 06-07-2004 07:24:53  
And to top it all off, the workers out here in the Gulf of Mexico working with me haven't received raises in more than 3- some 5 years. So tell me- where the he$$ is the money going?!?!



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Burrhead

06-07-2004 19:51:18




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 Re: Re: High cost of fuel...Reason? in reply to Tanklord, 06-07-2004 15:57:01  
Tom Lay and Trentt Lott gave yer pay raise to CheneyBurton, a division of BushInc.



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DL

06-07-2004 21:02:14




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 Re: Re: Re: High cost of fuel...Reason? in reply to Burrhead, 06-07-2004 19:51:18  
it's Tom DeLay... and Trent Lott is no longer the Senate Majority Leader. To be successful, most commedians do extensive research to make sure they "get the story straight"... it's much funnier that way. Keep trying... you might make it yet!



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DL

06-07-2004 21:06:28




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: High cost of fuel...Reason? in reply to DL, 06-07-2004 21:02:14  
Hint: Trent Lott was replaced quite some time ago because of a (perceived) politically in-correct statement he made... (the NEW leader is Bill Frist)



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Paul in Mich

06-08-2004 09:33:17




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: High cost of fuel...Reason? in reply to DL, 06-07-2004 21:06:28  
DL, Some people will never get it. They think money is bad unless its in their grubby little hands. They will go to their grave believing that no rich man ever earned his money. Mental midgets they are, and will always be. Just read below.



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Burr

06-08-2004 17:34:45




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: High cost of fuel...Reason in reply to Paul in Mich, 06-08-2004 09:33:17  
If you ratwing fellers think stealing money is the same as earning money no wonder Rush is a millionaire.



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Paul in Mich

06-08-2004 17:43:53




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: High cost of fuel...Re in reply to Burr, 06-08-2004 17:34:45  
Burr, Your ability to make such profound statements with absolutely no facts to back up what you say amazes me, and I am not easily amazed. But since you believe that everyone who is rich stole the money, then why the envy? If you were rich, it would indicate that you stole it, and I'm sure you wouldnt want to be branded a thief, so you're better off poor. You are the reason that some people deserve to be poor.

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Burr

06-09-2004 21:57:45




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: High cost of fuel. in reply to Paul in Mich, 06-08-2004 17:43:53  
That don't surprise me in the least fool. It don't take many facts to fool a fool like you.



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Burrhead

06-07-2004 22:03:19




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: High cost of fuel...Reason? in reply to DL, 06-07-2004 21:06:28  
Yeah and Frisk is half owner of HCA. The largest for hire medical outfit in America. Guess who's tenure the Bushkovite medicare and health insurance mumbojumbo got pushed thru on??

Better check yer old news there Mr Aintuptodate I'm still right. Ken Lay of Enron along with Uncle Dick CheneyBurton using the hitman tactics of Trentt Lott and Tom Lay pushed the energy bills that got thru in favor of CheneyBurton a division of BushInc.

Now the Scalia5 says Uncle Dick don't have to say under oath who wrote the energy bill.

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Alan

06-07-2004 15:03:18




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 Re: High cost of fuel...Reason? in reply to Dan in Wisconsin, 06-07-2004 07:24:53  
Has anybody checked how much of the cost of a gallon of fuel is tax? It's a bunch!



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buickanddeere

06-07-2004 14:42:17




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 Re: High cost of fuel...Reason? in reply to Dan in Wisconsin, 06-07-2004 07:24:53  
The price of oil is at it's current rate because people will grumble but still keep buying it. How did all that American oil get under that Arab sand anyways?



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Paul in Mich

06-07-2004 15:24:03




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 Re: Re: High cost of fuel...Reason? in reply to buickanddeere, 06-07-2004 14:42:17  
"Our" oil seeped into the Arabian sand because Alaska could no longer handle the volumn. Wouldn't want it bubbling out of the ground and scaring the deer, moose, elk, and caribu away, now would we?



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Brian in Kansas

06-07-2004 11:18:52




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 Re: High cost of fuel...Reason? in reply to Dan in Wisconsin, 06-07-2004 07:24:53  
Do You really want to know the reason for the high fuel prices if you think back during the desert storm campaing Oil got to 40 a barrel and gas got to $1.40 a gallon. And Here within the last year Oil has got up to 30-35 a barrel (might be more now I haven't checked) and gas is at $2.00 a gallon and The oil Refinerys are at record profits!!!!! The Goverment Deregulated the oil industry and they closed their smaller refinerys and did't build any more big ones and When the speed limit was increased that increased or oil use by aprox 15%. So add up no goverment telling the refinerys to build more. Using more gas. And high oil prices to blame it on and what do you get The whole American Public Gets screwed.

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snitkawl

06-07-2004 16:12:54




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 Re: Re: High cost of fuel...Reason? in reply to Brian in Kansas, 06-07-2004 11:18:52  
I just love you deep thinkers. The real reason gas is so high is dubya and all his rich oil buddys. Did you see his so called speech the other night? When he walked out, hundred dollar bills were falling off him in bunches and all the his rich buddies are the same way. They are just greedy. How many hundred dollar bills do you need anyway. It is all greedy rich peoples fault. Everything in the world is greedy rich peoples fault. All business owners are greedy rich people, and especially the ones that own oil refineries. I think we ought to take all their money and give it to people on welfare. Then the world would be such a wonderful place, gas would be abundant and cheap. In fact the welfare people(who now own the refineries)would probably pay us to take their gas.

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thurlow

06-08-2004 10:02:58




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 Re: Re: Re: High cost of fuel...Reason? in reply to snitkawl, 06-07-2004 16:12:54  
And another thing....what about the push to raise the minimum wage (by only a little bit)? What if it were raised to $25 per hour....times 2000 hours per year....equals $50,000 per year for everyone. Doesn't it make sense that everyone would live better if they were making $50,000????? Let's get on the horn to our congressmen..... ..



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big fred

06-08-2004 14:19:03




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: High cost of fuel...Reason? in reply to thurlow, 06-08-2004 10:02:58  
And if everbody was makin' $50K a year minimum, they wouldn't mind a little extra taxes to pay for their gummint-run healthcare. Everybody wins!!!



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buickanddeere

06-08-2004 15:28:11




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: High cost of fuel...Reason? in reply to big fred, 06-08-2004 14:19:03  
Minimum wage and welfare is low paying because the work isn't worth high pay. And why provide a comfortable living with welfare for people who don't want to work? Then again it does take a decent income before taxes to provide all the benefits welfare provides.



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Paul in Mich

06-08-2004 15:40:35




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: High cost of fuel...Reason in reply to buickanddeere, 06-08-2004 15:28:11  
Buickanddeere, And thats what makes welfare so unethical, and a bankrupt value system, because some poor bloke is out there working for less money than the welfare recipient, and a portion of his taxes go to perpetuate the welfare recipient's continued idleness. Temporary safety nets are morally just, Endless entitlements are not.



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Paul in Mich

06-08-2004 15:11:58




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: High cost of fuel...Reason? in reply to big fred, 06-08-2004 14:19:03  
Wow..... ...I can't wait for that to happen, then I could spend twice as much on Instant Lotto scratch tickets, and Casino trips, which in turn would double my chances of really becomming wealthy. Woah, there, waddya mean gasolene just jumped to $6.00 per gallon. I thought takin money from the rich and givvin it to us po folks was gonna solve all my problems. What happened to that Senator that said if I voted for him I'd be gettin all this free stuff?

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Paul in Mich

06-08-2004 04:17:21




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 Re: Re: Re: High cost of fuel...Reason? in reply to snitkawl, 06-07-2004 16:12:54  
Snitkawl, Hmmm, Take all the money from the rich and give it all to the poor. That's been tried before and doesn't work. Ever hear of Communism? Greed is not defined by being rich. Greed is expecting something that is not earned from those who earned it. Goess both ways, Buddy, if you didn't earn it, you have no right to take it from the man who did. Go out and get it the same way he did. The truth is that if all the money in the world was distributed out evenly between the haves and the havenots, within 5 years, the haves will have it all back, and the have nots will be have squandered it.

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snitkawl

06-08-2004 04:58:05




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: High cost of fuel...Reason? in reply to Paul in Mich, 06-08-2004 04:17:21  
Paul: I appreciate your well thought out replys to the typical bonehead ideas of shallow thinkers. My post above was meant to be chiding satire.



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Phil Munson

06-08-2004 10:47:38




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: High cost of fuel...Reason? in reply to snitkawl, 06-08-2004 04:58:05  
You DEEP thinkers can go ahead and keep masaging your own feeble egos. What you reference as supply and demand and free market competition has, under the scrutiny of sunlight, been exposed to be fraud and conspiracy; ENRON ETC ETC. Of course most of them are dubya's pals. Draw your own conclusions; most do not want the reality.



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Phil Munson

06-10-2004 06:26:25




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: High cost of f in reply to Paul in Mich, 06-10-2004 04:54:53  
I feel remorse for your grandson and all of the rest who have been put in harms way by a liar. No credible connection has ever been established between Saddam and Al Qaida. In fact, there are more Al Qaida in Iraq, post Saddam, than there were when he was in power.

You have nicely proved my point about what a shallow hypocrite you are with the tripe about your own grandson. That you would assert the offering of your own grandson's life as a measure of your conviction is disgusting.

You say that "everyone" thought there were WMD. HELLO, HELLO. None of the many, many UN inspectors who were on site in Iraq ever said there were any WMD.

I am not, nor have ever been, a pacifist. War should be a last resort, not, as this one is, a first choice.

Paul, I hope that you are just incredibly stupid. That would be much more noble than to think that you know better, but willingly choose to assert untruthful information. How sad, currently presidential, maybe, but still sad.

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Paul in Mich

06-10-2004 17:35:43




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: High cost in reply to Phil Munson, 06-10-2004 06:26:25  
Phil, Remorse is not what you should feel. Shame is more like it. I don't want your remorse for the situation my Grandson is in, nor do I want your pity. He is far above that. You are dead wrong to imply that I "Offered up my Grandson's life as a measure of my conviction". That makes you a liar. He volunteered because he loves his country and not because I or anyone else "offered him up". Shame on you. I suppose that Mohamad Atta's meeting in Baghdad had nothing more to do with the connection of the Saddam regieme, than charles Manson's connection to the Tate Murder. Saddam was up to his ears in terrorism, and you and everyone else knows it. The hyocracy is in the denial. I'm sure you cant see it since you obviously get your information from the likes of Michael Moore, Al Franken, and those who's ideologies are closer to the Kremlin then they are the Whitehouse. In case you forgot, We didn't start the war, War was declared on us in no uncertain terms by those whom we can never negotiate peace. We can give them back every drop of oil, give them as much land as they want, and yet we can never give them what they want. They want only one thing. They want you and me dead, and they want our children and grandchildren dead. They want that and only that. They declared war on us for that very end, and it doesnt take Presicent Bush to explain it to me. They have explained it in clear and transparent terms. I could go on and on, but there is no point, you choose not to get it. And as to being shallow, Your values could be held in a saucer and never spill over. Face it Chump, There are a lot of commies who think just like you do. That is not conjecture, thats fact, YOu doubt me, just log onto CPUSA.com. But please do it without remmorse or pity for my Grandson or any of the other brave men in uniform, they need none from you.

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Phil Munson

06-09-2004 19:57:21




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: High cost of fuel...Re in reply to snitkawl, 06-08-2004 15:46:19  
what color is the sky in your world? Do you think that it may be caused by your medications? Don't lose hope there may be a cure, yet in your lifetime.

Phil



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Paul in Mich

06-08-2004 09:26:12




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: High cost of fuel...Reason? in reply to snitkawl, 06-08-2004 04:58:05  
My most humble apologies. Obviously I misunderstood you.



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big fred

06-07-2004 17:07:53




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 Re: Re: Re: High cost of fuel...Reason? in reply to snitkawl, 06-07-2004 16:12:54  
Thanks, snitkawl. One of the reasons I like to check Tractor Talk every day is because of threads like this. Some of the ideas you see here are a real hoot.



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Paul in Mich

06-07-2004 15:02:10




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 Re: Re: High cost of fuel...Reason? in reply to Brian in Kansas, 06-07-2004 11:18:52  
Brian, you are right about one thing. The government deregulated the oil industry, AND the industry closed refineries, not that the refineries closed BECAUSE the government deregulated the industry. This was not a cause and effect here, only a sequence of events. Deregulation in any industry creats more competition, therefore the price of the product is established through supply and demand. No program that has been regulated by government has ever brought us lower prices. That is a total myth. Regulation decreases competition, which historically has led to less market based prices, and ultimately higher prices. Government can only affect the "cost" of a product or service, while free enterprise is the only entity which can establish a fair and competitive "price". Free enterprise allows competition which allows for lower prices. Government control only establishes a "cost" and is not a "price", because it is not negotiable between seller andy buyer. Government is not held accountable for the cost of a product of service. It is ridiculous to think that the oil companies are making more money because they dismantled the refineries, thereby not being able to meet public demand for their product. Business just doesnt work that way. If you want to sell more pizzas, do you decrease your oven capacity so that you cannot meet the demand of the pizza buyer, thereby allowing you to increase the price of the pizza? The answer is NO, because the "cost" of making the pizza does not decrease just because you shut one of the ovens down, and if you cant meet demand, you cant just automatically increase the "price" of your pizza to make a profit, because the competition has his all his ovens operating and is able to meet the demand of "YOUR" customer, and at a competitive "price". The Oil industry is no different. They are all competing for your dollar, just like the pizza shop. If they could, they would increase the capacity to sell you more oil and oil products. Regulation, and the dismantling of the refineries because of the environmentalists pressure limits the oil companies to create that competition and it leaves you and I out of the "price" loop. Just another lesson in ecomomics 101.

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Ben in KY

06-08-2004 10:26:03




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 Re: Re: Re: High cost of fuel...Reason? in reply to Paul in Mich, 06-07-2004 15:02:10  
Due to mergers and aquisitions there is effectively no competition in the US oil industry. Company a buys out company b and closes some of company B's refineries to jack up the price. And a lot of people are out of good jobs.



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DL

06-08-2004 10:44:21




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: High cost of fuel...Reason? in reply to Ben in KY, 06-08-2004 10:26:03  
bingo!



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Ron

06-07-2004 17:15:37




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 Re: Re: Re: High cost of fuel...Reason? in reply to Paul in Mich, 06-07-2004 15:02:10  
You may have missed economics 100. Pizza is what economists categorize as “discretionary spending”. Oil, on the other hand, is a commodity. Futures (commitments to buy and sell in the future) are traded based on expected future supply and demand. It’s really just that simple.

Actual pump prices are determined by the particular nation’s gas policy. See Link and when gas hits $5.00/gallon here, don’t be surprised. I sure won’t!

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paul in Mich

06-08-2004 04:26:20




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: High cost of fuel...Reason? in reply to Ron, 06-07-2004 17:15:37  
Ron, Then you have made my point. Get the government out of the commodity business, and let the free market control it, without environmental restrictionns, and tax gouging,and your price of oil will will be fair and real, not artificially manipulated the way it is now. Artificially manipuulation of any commodity never lowers prices, it always raises them in the long run, because it limits competition. The Pizza comparison simply points out a basic truth, and the basic truth does not change whether its pizza or oil, or wheat.

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Alan

06-07-2004 15:11:50




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 Re: Re: Re: High cost of fuel...Reason? in reply to Paul in Mich, 06-07-2004 15:02:10  
Exactly right! Those of us old enough to remember know what price controls did when Jimmy Carter was President.
Is there price fixing going on? Absolutely, but it wouldn't work if the driving public didn't just pay the higher price.
I've heard that the oil fields in Texas are filling again. As long as we continue to depend on OPEC, we can expect higher prices. And the answer isn't wind power, electric cars, or bicycles. The answer is ignore the environmental wackos, pump our own oil, and keep working on making bio-fuel more efficiently and more cost effective.

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cb

06-07-2004 13:29:06




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 Re: Re: High cost of fuel...Reason? in reply to Brian in Kansas, 06-07-2004 11:18:52  
three reasons to close a small refinery.

1. the lack of feed stock. the wells in the US are going dry and no one can afford to drill.

2. the high cost of goverment regulations, clean air, clean water, high cost of insurance...

3. refinerys are a low margin business nobody yelled when oil was 10.00 a barrel, gas was .75 gal and 500,000 working folks in the oil field lost their jobs. (from 1986-1996)

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Paul in Mich

06-07-2004 15:13:40




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 Re: Re: Re: High cost of fuel...Reason? in reply to cb, 06-07-2004 13:29:06  
Brian, Tell that to your environmentalist friends. Do we not remember President Bush proposing drilling in the Anwar range in Alaska only to be deep sixed by environmental "concerns"? Yes, I suppose He could order it done anyway, but then that would make him a Dictator, and not a President, wouldn't it?



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Brain in Kansas

06-07-2004 14:47:37




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 Re: Re: Re: High cost of fuel...Reason? in reply to cb, 06-07-2004 13:29:06  
But they Should have Built More Large ones or Expanded the one that they had.



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Joe in Nova Scotia

06-07-2004 13:21:10




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 Re: Re: High cost of fuel...Reason? in reply to Brian in Kansas, 06-07-2004 11:18:52  
$2.00 a gallon sounds great. Here in Nova Scotia it's $1.00 a litre



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Alan

06-07-2004 15:14:59




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 Re: Re: Re: High cost of fuel...Reason? in reply to Joe in Nova Scotia, 06-07-2004 13:21:10  
No offense please and I certainly don't know for sure, but I suspect one of the reasons fuel is high in Canada is taxes.



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Brian In Kansas

06-07-2004 14:50:05




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 Re: Re: Re: High cost of fuel...Reason? in reply to Joe in Nova Scotia, 06-07-2004 13:21:10  
Yes it sounds good in a Way but when you consider that in 1998 I was Filling up at Wichita Kansas For $0.79.9 yes Seventy nine cents a gallon and now I am Paying $2.00 a gallon.



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steveormary

06-07-2004 10:08:10




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 Re: High cost of fuel...Reason? in reply to Dan in Wisconsin, 06-07-2004 07:24:53  
Dan in Wisconsin;

You have that right.

steve



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Ben in KY

06-07-2004 09:35:52




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 Re: High cost of fuel...Reason? in reply to Dan in Wisconsin, 06-07-2004 07:24:53  
Just read today where we have spent at least one half billion of our tax dollars buying gas in Kuwait, hauling it to Iraq and selling it to the Iraq people for .05/GAL. ??



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Alan

06-07-2004 15:17:25




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 Re: Re: High cost of fuel...Reason? in reply to Ben in KY, 06-07-2004 09:35:52  
I'm not so sure about that. Even though it isn't widely reported, most of the oil drilling in Iraq has been restored. And there is no tax on fuel in Iraq.



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john in la

06-07-2004 18:13:30




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 Re: Re: Re: High cost of fuel...Reason? in reply to Alan, 06-07-2004 15:17:25  
That may be true but even if the oil is comming from Iraq you can not drill and refine it for .05 per gallon. The station makes that much here. Heard the same story today on the local CBS talk radio station.



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Bill Smith

06-07-2004 08:46:26




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 Re: High cost of fuel...Reason? in reply to Dan in Wisconsin, 06-07-2004 07:24:53  
We've got big problems relating to the oil industry. All the way from top to bottom. Polititions wanting to use foreign oil and save ours for later, environmentalists not wanting to do anymore drilling or pumping here, big company's trying to controll the market, and the list goes on and on. We might see $5 gas before anybody even tries to resolve any of these problems.



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