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Gas Prices Paying Twice

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tlak

06-05-2004 03:54:27




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Heres a story from yahoo news. Looks like along with our high gas prices we are subsidizing Irag gas from $1.50 to where they pay $.05 a gallon, not counting what Brown and Ruett was stealing.

By JIM KRANE, Associated Press Writer

BAGHDAD, Iraq - One of the prewar forecasts was that by invading Iraq (news - web sites), the world would profit from stable exports of Iraq's oil. And that would translate into cheap gas for American drivers. Now, with U.S. gasoline averaging $2.05 per gallon — about 50 cents more than the pre-invasion price — that logic has been flipped on its head.


AP Photo

Instead, Iraqis seem to be the only people getting cheap gas as a result of the invasion. They pay just five cents for a gallon — thanks to hundreds of millions of dollars in U.S. taxpayer subsidies.


Since Iraq has little capacity to refine its own gasoline, the U.S. government pays about $1.50 a gallon to purchase fuel in neighboring countries and deliver it to Iraqi filling stations. A three-month supply costs American taxpayers more than $500 million, not including the cost of military escorts.


The arrangement keeps a fleet of 4,200 tank trucks constantly on the move, ferrying fuel to Iraq.


Baghdad taxi driver Osama Hashim says he owes his livelihood to the U.S. taxpayer.


"We thank the Americans. They risked their lives to liberate us and now they are improving our lives," said Hashim, 26, topping up the tank on his beat-up 1983 Volkswagen.


Filling a 22-gallon tank in Baghdad with low-grade fuel costs just $1.10, plus a 50-cent tip for the attendant. A tankful of high-test costs $2.75.


In Britain, by contrast, gasoline prices hit $5.79 per gallon last week — $127 for a tankful.


Iraq's fuel subsidies, which are intended to mollify drivers used to low-priced fuel under Saddam Hussein (news - web sites), have coupled with the opening of the borders to create an anarchic car culture in Baghdad.


Cheap used cars shipped from Europe and Asia are flooding into Iraq. A 10-year-old BMW in good condition costs just $5,000. Since gas is so cheap, anyone with a car can become a taxi driver. Drivers jam the streets, offering rides for as little as 250 dinars — about 17 cents.


Iraq has no sales tax, no registration, no license plates and no auto insurance. Some would argue there are no rules of the road. Cars barrel the wrong way on the highway. They swoop into surprise U-turns. They ignore traffic signals.


Analysts say the U.S. gas subsidies can't last forever.


"The U.S. taxpayer has a right to be indignant, and Iraqis have to be warned about the long-run damages of this," said Anthony Cordesman, an Iraq analyst with the Washington-based Center for Strategic and International Studies. "The minute the aid goes out, the party is over. And there's going to be a hell of a hangover."


The U.S. government paid even more last year for Iraqis' gasoline — between $1.59 and $1.70 per gallon — when the imports were contracted to Halliburton, the Texas oil services giant formerly headed by Vice President Dick Cheney (news - web sites).


The cheap fuel is spurring unsustainable demand, promoting wasteful use of energy and transportation, and squandering Iraq's oil output that might otherwise be exported, Cordesman said.


"You're leading people to buy cars that aren't affordable at normal costs," he said. "You need to move toward real market prices as quickly as you can without causing instability."


Iraqi drivers protest that the price difference between a gallon of gas in the United States and Iraq is fair, because the average Iraqi earns around $1,000 per year, a thirtieth of the average U.S. wage.

"If the price of gas goes up, we'll see lots of anger in the street," said cab driver Hashim, at a grimy filling station on Saadoun Street in central Baghdad.

Cheap gasoline is also needed to fuel the ubiquitous portable electric generators in Iraq, which power air conditioners during long daily blackouts.

Hashim and another driver, convinced, like many Iraqis, that the United States reaps huge amounts of cheap Iraqi oil, said subsidized gasoline was the least Americans could provide in return.

"The United States controls all Iraqi resources now," said Jenan Jabro, 50, tanking up his black Opel. "So what if they have to pay a little bit for gasoline? That's nothing compared to what they get in return."

Analysts say there never was a good case — either before the war or afterward — that a U.S. invasion would pay dividends in cheap oil.

"Some of the neo-conservatives might've been saying that, but no energy analysts were walking around saying that," Cordesman said.

Iraq's current exports of just under 2 million barrels of oil a day aren't enough to dent the world market price. It will take up to three years to bring Iraq back just to 1991 export levels, said Rachel Bronson of the Council on Foreign Relations. The country is still too unstable for most oil companies to invest in, she said.

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IanC

06-06-2004 14:26:55




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 Re: Gas Prices Paying Twice in reply to tlak, 06-05-2004 03:54:27  
I'm not going to waste time reading this whole sting, But I'm fed up with people P**ing and whining about the price of gas when they are the same people who don't think twice about paying $3 to $6 a gallon for WATER (128oz per gal/20oz bottle* $.50 to $1.00 each). And comparing our fuel prices to Europe's doesn't apply either, they pay the same for crude as we do, the rest is TAX. And you can fit any of their BIG countries INSIDE Texas.

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Gary in TX

06-05-2004 14:20:36




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 Re: Gas Prices Paying Twice in reply to tlak, 06-05-2004 03:54:27  
Its plain and simple rape! There is no need in gas costing over what it did this time last year, lets see what was that about the $1.30 range for regular unleaded. Yes I do believe its hurting many people, I know it is around here where I live. Most around here are not in the $100,000.00 a year salary range. I think what alot of people are not realising is that its going to affect everything, prices are going to be on a major rise for alot of products due to all of this.
I know there were some(heck everyone) that posted to my post on this gas price topic that disagreed that it was hurting people, well, it is here, other places I can't say but we need relief from this and to get the speed limit brought back down. I've seen and heard of so many more accidents and deaths since its went to 70 here that its really sad! A little tip for ya too, the faster you go the more gas you burn!!! think about it!

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Tommy D6-8U

06-05-2004 14:45:13




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 Re: Re: Gas Prices Paying Twice in reply to Gary in TX, 06-05-2004 14:20:36  
Gary,

My exact point. I'm glad somebody sees it the way I do.

Higher Speed = Higher Horsepower
Higher Horsepower = Higher Fuel Consumption
Higher Fuel Consumption = Higher Fuel Cost

Yes, the high fuel prices are hurting everyone but there are ways to reduce consumption.

Tommy (Curmudgeon-at-large)



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HOW

06-05-2004 18:47:42




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 Re: Re: Re: Gas Prices Paying Twice in reply to Tommy D6-8U, 06-05-2004 14:45:13  
do you haul your tractors to the shows... with your Geo Metro????



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HOW

06-06-2004 15:32:14




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gas Prices Paying Twice in reply to Tommy D6-8U, 06-06-2004 08:26:23  
Thanks for the clarification on your position. I couldn't agree more. I use an F550 around the place, but we also have a car that gets (slightly) better mileage and we use it as much as we can. You're right... the amount we spend on fuel is our own choice! I don't like paying higher prices for fuel, but by continuing to drive my truck, tractor, etc, I choose to do so, right? If the fuel prices bother me that much, I should probably consider selling everything buying a bicycle and living in a condo somewhere. Might have to do that anyway... I recently read an article by an economist (sorry, don't remember his name) who predicted fuel prices would reach $5/gal in the US before the end of this decade... my guess is that he's probably right!

The reason I get frustrated reading some of these responses is because it seems that many people are eager to criticize others, before they consider their own situation. I'd guess that most people that use this web site have a few tractors sitting around (some needed & used, some just as collectors) and a few trucks/trailers sitting around to haul the tractors with. I'd also guess that none of these vehicles is very efficient with a gallon of gas. Yet, these same people are the first to complain about fuel prices and try to lay blame on everyone else and especially on the evil ol' 70+ mph speed limits!

I (unfortunately) remember the days of the "double nickel" speed limit... I made a few cross country trips back then... took forever to get anywhere! Out here in the west, where it can be 50, 75, or 100 miles between towns, a 55 mph speed limit isn't too practical. Our hiways were designed for higher speeds, and since we don't have to deal with the heavy traffic that other parts of the country do, a 75 mph speed limit works for us! It's been my experience that most people don't drive at the speed limit anyway... believe it or not, most people drive a bit below. And, as far as hiway fatalities go, ours haven't changed significantly since the speed limit was increased. The majority of our fatal accidents are single car roll-overs... where the occupant was not wearing a seat belt. In the majority of these cases, the speed or size of the vehicle involved had no affect on the outcome. Interesting to note though, that most of these people would have survived if they'd only taken the time to fasten their safety belts!

Who's to blame for the higher prices we enjoy??? Probably everyone... government/environmentalists for restricting drilling & exploration, for mandating regional/seasonal fuel blends AND for making it next to impossible to build new refineries... oil companies trying to maximize profits (CEO salaries)... OPEC saying they prefer $30 oil, then making sure it stays at $40 or higher... Wall street where "futures" have more to do with the price of gasoline than does the price of oil... our society, where a "Hummer" is the only vehicle big and powerful enough to get the kids to soccer practice... and me, for wanting to have a few acres and a few animals and the equipment it takes to keep it all going.

Yeah, the price of fuel is going up a bit, but I'm glad I have the freedom to do the things I like to do, and the ability to do them... lots of folks don't! Guess the bottom line is, when the price of fuel gets too high, most people will go back to driving econo boxes (just like they did in the 70's), and the price of gasoline will be more stable. Then, we'll have to find something else to worry about!

Regards, DL

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Paul in Mich

06-06-2004 19:55:02




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gas Prices Paying Twice in reply to HOW, 06-06-2004 15:32:14  
How, Isn't it wonderful to live in a country where we can complain about the price of gasolene rather than lament the fact that we can't afford to eat today, and maybe not tomorrow either. Heck, after we get through complaining we head right over to the nearest casino. Dang, America is a great place to be.



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DL

06-06-2004 20:47:42




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gas Prices Paying Twic in reply to Paul in Mich, 06-06-2004 19:55:02  
my sentiments exactly!



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Mguy

06-05-2004 22:10:40




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Gas Prices Paying Twice in reply to HOW, 06-05-2004 18:47:42  
If your occasional trip hauling tractors to the show is your major fuel consumption, you got one good deal. In construction, a LOT of guys will average 10 mi per day. Smoke that in yer pipe. Mguy.



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Mguy

06-05-2004 22:12:35




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gas Prices Paying Twice in reply to Mguy, 06-05-2004 22:10:40  
Woops , meant to say 100 mi. above. Mguy.



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buickanddeere

06-05-2004 15:03:06




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 Re: Re: Re: Gas Prices Paying Twice in reply to Tommy D6-8U, 06-05-2004 14:45:13  
Even thought about the amount of oil North America could save just by inflating the tires up to spec. And keeping the engines tuned up? Drive slow if you want but stay in the right hand/slow/biddy lane and let faster traffic pass on the left.



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buickanddeere

06-05-2004 13:59:01




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 Re: Gas Prices Paying Twice in reply to tlak, 06-05-2004 03:54:27  
Worse yet you are paying for heavily taxed fuel with your paycheque after the gov't already took income tax off of. Any time a government tries to tinker with markets and the economy. The good intentions and short term gain always lead to long term grief. Which leads to the topic of welfare and taxes. The harder you work the more you are taxed. For the welfare bums the less they do and the more irresponsible e.g. more illegitimate children, the money they get. Truly an example of punishing good and rewarding wrong.

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TomR Ont.

06-05-2004 19:32:33




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 Re: Re: Gas Prices Paying Twice in reply to buickanddeere, 06-05-2004 13:59:01  

You didn't mention the (auto industry and other) corporate welfare bums. I thought Premier Haris took care of all these welfare mothers a few years back, because they were wasting thier welfare cheques on food and rent, and not spending enough of it on beer and cigarettes, How much faster could they get most of the cheque back, maybe lottery tickets and casinos, oh I know ... gas tax ... but where the f#%&* did they get that BMW.

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buickanddeere

06-05-2004 20:42:46




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 Re: Re: Re: Gas Prices Paying Twice in reply to TomR Ont., 06-05-2004 19:32:33  
What are you talking about? I said the gov't can not run or prop up a business with long term positive results. And why is hard work punished with extra taxes and being a bum rewarded with extra hand outs for being a bigger bum?



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bigreddm

06-05-2004 10:56:27




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 Re: Gas Prices Paying Twice in reply to tlak, 06-05-2004 03:54:27  
well you got people's attention. now follow up on it. remember you have a computer. e-mail your representative, senator(if you know who they are), pres and v.p. you have this right. don't just complain here. write them. I do, every week as a matter of fact. hasn't worked yet, but i practice my right to do so. if you need to find you rep just go to www.whitehouse.gov



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Tommy D6-8U

06-05-2004 09:29:37




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 Re: Gas Prices Paying Twice in reply to tlak, 06-05-2004 03:54:27  
I don't like paying so much for fuel either but let's face it. We have the cheapest fuel in the world, we drive some of the most fuel-gulping vehicles made, we drive 5, 10, 15, 20 mph over posted speed limits, and we can buy all the fuel we want when we want. Not much reason to complain about high prices to me! Just my opinion.

Tommy



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TomR Ont.

06-05-2004 18:18:05




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 Re: Re: Gas Prices Paying Twice in reply to Tommy D6-8U, 06-05-2004 09:29:37  
Just a minute guys ... Supose every American, Canadian and UK driver had a VW that got 48 mpg and then everyone drove 10 MPH under all posted speed limits and only drove when it was absolutely necessary ... do you think the price would go down to $1.99 a gal because they have too much gas or up to $12.00 a gal to keep profits up, because they say their only making pennies a gal now? What about the Tax men what will they do?

..... just wondering?

I'm sure here in Canada he would want the whole $12.00 and let the Oil CO fend for themselves.

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FRANK

06-05-2004 08:12:06




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 Re: Gas Prices Paying Twice in reply to tlak, 06-05-2004 03:54:27  

EACH TIME GAS GOES UP, THERE ARE FOLKS THAT ARE ADDED TO THE LIST OF THOSE THAT ARE UNABLE TO BUY IT. YET JUST LAST WEEK VP CHENEY FLEW INTO TOWN FOR A FUND RAISER. THE US AIRFORCE PRESIDENTIAL JET THAT HE CAME IN ON WAS PRECEDED BY A C-130 THAT BROUGHT THE VEHICLES FOR HIS "PARADE". I CAN ONLY IMMAGINE THE FUEL THAT WAS USED. OF COURSE, IF HALLIBURTON HAD GIVEN ME A $5,000,000.00 RETIREMENT PACKAGE PLUS OVER TWENTY-FIVE MILLION DOLLARS WORTH OF STOCK, I DON,T THINK I WOULD CARE WHAT GAS COST. SO, COME NOVEMBER, IF WE CAN AFFORD THE GAS TO GET TO THE POLES, WE SHOULD HELP MR. CHENEY, "OUT".

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Matt

06-05-2004 16:40:43




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 Re: Re: Gas Prices Paying Twice in reply to FRANK, 06-05-2004 08:12:06  
So you can elect someone who believes in higher gas taxes?



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BrokenFences

06-05-2004 08:01:00




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 Re: Gas Prices Paying Twice in reply to tlak, 06-05-2004 03:54:27  
Thank the Lord for my TDI VW at 48 mpg! Seriously, in the big picture are you really suffering with high fuel prices? What I mean is in light of the big picture, is this such a sacrifice for us, when our military men and woman are putting their butts on the line to liberate these same people? If in two or three years the market doesn't stabilize at more common rates, then I may be concerned. Just my two cents, but I'm just so happy to have a job that can pay for gas, toy tractors, trucks, house, farm...

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tlak

06-05-2004 08:33:20




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 Re: Re: Gas Prices Paying Twice in reply to BrokenFences, 06-05-2004 08:01:00  
Yes some of use are suffering on a fixed income. I dont think the fuel prices have anything to do with our military fighting there. Our military uses all diesel except for maybe some civilian generators so your not supporting them by paying high gas prices.



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Fixed income?

06-05-2004 17:57:59




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 Re: Re: Re: Gas Prices Paying Twice in reply to tlak, 06-05-2004 08:33:20  
You equate that with "poor", don't you?PULLLEEEEZE! Les Fortunate



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tlak

06-05-2004 18:48:49




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Gas Prices Paying Twice in reply to Fixed income?, 06-05-2004 17:57:59  
Is fixed income a term you dont understand? Some peoples fixed income is not $50k a year. If you relate poor to the pay scale in africa or iraq or where ever, probably not. If you relate it to being able to pay your bills at the end of the month or figuring how to pay doctor bills I would call that poor.



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Paul in Mich

06-06-2004 04:09:40




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gas Prices Paying Twice in reply to tlak, 06-05-2004 18:48:49  
tlak, If you raised the lower end of "fixed income by 100% do you really think that would solve your problem? Economics do not work that way. Everyone elses income would increase at the same rate, but then, so would prices, so you are back to the same condition you were in in the first place. Regardless of what the price of gasolene is, there are some that can afford to pay it and some who cant, and some who will gripe even if they can afford it. Everyone here keeps blaming the wrong people for our gasolene situation. I agree that the more that government meddles and manipulates, the more they exaserbate the problem, but the real culprits here are the environmentalists who have intimidated government into legislating against oil drilling and fuel refineries. I put this and every gasolene and fuel shortage and price gouging right at their doorsteps. We have oil, and we can be a competitor to foreign oil, not a dependant.we just have to stand up to these environmentalist loonies and go get it. Once again, I say that the environment is not the core concern of environmentalists, their primary objective is to render the U.S.A. impotent.

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DL

06-06-2004 15:45:52




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gas Prices Paying Twice in reply to Paul in Mich, 06-06-2004 04:09:40  
well said. and speaking of environmentalists... ever wonder why most offshore drilling is only done in the gulf of mexico?? guess there is no oil off the east & west coasts!



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Bill

06-06-2004 09:21:18




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gas Prices Paying Twice in reply to Paul in Mich, 06-06-2004 04:09:40  
I agree, I bet those environmentalists are the type of people who think they need a crew cab dually to drive from the acerage to town to get groceries (at Walmart of course)



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Alberta Mike

06-05-2004 05:29:06




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 Re: Gas Prices Paying Twice in reply to tlak, 06-05-2004 03:54:27  
I see in the article that they tip the pump jockeys over there. That's more than we do here for pump jockeys.



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Cosmo

06-05-2004 06:07:24




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 Re: Re: Gas Prices Paying Twice in reply to Alberta Mike, 06-05-2004 05:29:06  
Do you still have pump jockeys where you live? Down here we have the privilige of pumping our own gas, checking tirepressure, oil, radiator, and windshield washing, that is even if there is anything to wash it with..(



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Alberta Mike

06-05-2004 06:56:57




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 Re: Re: Re: Gas Prices Paying Twice in reply to Cosmo, 06-05-2004 06:07:24  
Yes, there are a few stations still around with full service, however most are self serve like the ones you mention. I've been told than in some states (Oregon for example) that there are NO self serve stations and gas must be dispensed by an attendant. Interesting world.



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tlak

06-05-2004 08:24:56




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Gas Prices Paying Twice in reply to Alberta Mike, 06-05-2004 06:56:57  
The way i understand it is Oregon went to that because of pump fires



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BrokenFences

06-05-2004 09:15:33




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gas Prices Paying Twice in reply to tlak, 06-05-2004 08:24:56  
I believe OPEC cut production in order to demonstrate some power that they have over the "occupying country". They want to intimidate us in the ways they know- terrorism and fuel supply. This is what I meant when comparing our "small sacrifice" to those of our soldiers. I certainly don't wish to belittle anyone who has a hard time paying the bills. Many people complaining about gas prices though, are still driving new vehicles, have new house... all I'm saying is live within your means, and appreciate what we have in this country. Vote what you believe in, I'm happy to be able to.

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Harry G

06-05-2004 15:42:02




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gas Prices Paying Twice in reply to BrokenFences, 06-05-2004 09:15:33  
As a Father with a Son serving with the 1st ID in Iraq I can only say that if he where asked to pay 5 dollars a gallon to get the heck out of there he would. None of them WANT to be there but they are and act as professionals regardless of the casualities. They are doing a job that they are paid to do. We (all of us ) brought this upon ourselves with our dependencies on foreign oil supplies. While we have the technologies to drill in a environmentally way some say "NO WAY". You can not have your cake and eat it too.Whomever adminstration you chose to blame it is NOT our military personell. rather go back to prior political administrations that allowed/permitted this to happen. God Bless our Troops..... ...or am still allowed to say that.

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tlak

06-06-2004 03:59:04




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gas Prices Paying Twic in reply to Harry G, 06-05-2004 15:42:02  
I agree with you about the prior political administrations. The first Bush should have taken care of the problem.



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Paul in Mich

06-07-2004 09:37:26




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gas Prices Pay in reply to Paul in Mich, 06-06-2004 04:18:10  
Yep. thats it, lets just pass to buck to succeeding administrations. Better yet, lets blame the guy you don't happen to like....Yep, its all his fault.



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Ben in KY

06-07-2004 06:41:56




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gas Prices Pay in reply to Paul in Mich, 06-06-2004 04:18:10  
The current Bush has a majority of control in both houses.



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