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I'M HAVING BIG TROUBLE WITH MY IH 444 TRACTOR WANT

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Rick

11-20-2003 04:50:32




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I know this is long but bear with me. I'M HAVING BIG TROUBLE WITH MY IH 444 TRACTOR WANTING TO DIE ON ME AFTER IT HEATS UP AND GETS UNDER A LOAD. IT WAS RUNNING JUST FINE AND THEN ONE DAY..... .PLAAA! I'VE REPLACED THE POINTS AND CONDENSER AND ROTOR CAP, CLEANED OUT THE CARB. NOTHING, ADDED AN INLINE FUEL FILTER, REPLACED THE COIL, THEN REGAPPED THE POINTS. BUT IT JUST KEEPS GETTING WORSE IT ALSO WANTS TO BACK FIRE WHEN I TRY TO RESTART IT BUT IT WILL NOT RESTART UNTIL IT COOLS OFF COMPLETELY. ANY SUGGESTIONS? ONE STRANGE THING IS THAT I CAN HOLD ONTO THE COIL TO DISTRIBUTOR CAP WIRE WHILE IT IS RUNNING. EVERYONE SEEMS TO THINK I SHOULDN'T BE ABLE TO DO THAT WITHOUT GETTING ZAPPED. I'VE LOOKED AT ALL THE WIRES AND CAN'T FIND ANY SHORTS OR BREAKS. I'VE ALSO RUN A WIRE STRAIGHT FROM THE BATTERY TO THE POSITIVE SIDE OF THE COIL THAT DIDN'T HELP OR CHANGE ANYTHING EITHER. I'VE CHECKED FOR MOISTURE AND CRACKS IN THE CAP. IT WILL USUALLY RUN A GOOD STEADY HOUR BEFORE IT WANTS TO DIE. I'VE BEEN MESSING WITH THIS THING FOR WEEKS AND CAN'T TROUBLE SHOOT IT. I'M PRETTY SURE THAT I HAVE GOOD FUEL PRESSURE I'VE CHECKED THAT THE NEEDLE VALVE OPENS AND CLOSES AT INSTALLED POSITION, THE NEW FUEL FILTER IS CLEAR SO I CAN SEE THAT IT MADE IT TO WITHIN 3" OF THE CARB. THE TRACTOR HAS AN ELECTRIC FUEL PUMP AND IT'S STILL PUMPING GOOD.
Follow up. 11/20/03 I have changed the coil, the points, condenser, and rotor button, I’ve tried it without the gas cap, and I’ve made sure it still has gas in the carb. after it stops running, by taking the drain plug out of the bowl. I made a new wire from the coil to the points. I’ve dried inside the cap and sprayed it with WD40, I looked at the insulator between the points and distributor itself to make sure it's not cracked. I replaced the coil wire and checked all the plug wires. The dist. cap looks fine. Twice now I’ve taken the dist. cap off and looked things over touched stuff inside and put the cap back on and it fires right up, but then it goes back to doing the same thing just when I think I’ve fixed it. When it does start it runs fine, making me think it's not gas or carb. problems, but as soon as it gets hot and I bog it down it wants to die and then will not restart, now I’m even having trouble starting it cold. The timing has never been touched since it was running fine before all this started. I’m afraid to mess with it. The exhaust is out the top. I’m lost and about to give up and hire it out to get fixed but I really hate to because I think it's got to be something simple or crazy that I could fix myself.
The strange thing I asked about before, touching the coil wire while it's running. Should that be possible without getting shocked??? Thanks for all the suggestions, but so far I can't make any of them the fix it. Still looking for that magical idea.

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ChrisLSD

03-23-2006 08:22:31




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 Re: white 2-75 tractor in reply to rboulware, 03-23-2006 07:01:07  
You don't see many around or for sale - I think I have number 900 somehting built it is an iseki 9000 that is also on the serial numbertag



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bob

11-21-2003 06:17:40




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 Re: I'M HAVING BIG TROUBLE WITH MY IH 444 TRACTOR in reply to Rick, 11-20-2003 04:50:32  
I think it proably is a bad coil as I had this problem and new one was bad also. Could be that some coils have to be grounded to outer case. My 444 this summer had a dying problem but iyt had set for some time and gas tank was full of rust I fianally took it off and washed with water and then blew out moisture and that ended problem. I knew I had a fuel problem because i could pull fuel line off at carb and nothing canme out. If it runs good when first started then it isn,t valves I don,t think

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RAB

11-21-2003 08:38:08




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 Re: Re: I'M HAVING BIG TROUBLE WITH MY IH 444 TRAC in reply to bob, 11-21-2003 06:17:40  
Rick,
Please refer to my reply on 6th November. Please post the results and then we can perhaps go forward from there.
Regards, RAB



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Joe

11-20-2003 18:51:17




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 Re: I'M HAVING BIG TROUBLE WITH MY IH 444 TRACTOR in reply to Rick, 11-20-2003 04:50:32  
A couple of ideas:
1. There is a big chunk of trash in the gas tank floating around until it gets sucked onto the suction tube. Turn off the engine and it floats off, allowing the fuel to run freely again. The variable time of running leads me to this first. 2. The coil heats up and the winding shorts or opens, changing the voltage discharge. When it cools, it returns to normal. Also a variable time depending on how fast the heat builds up.

The coil wire will give you a nasty shock if you aren'e expecting it, but it is more like an electric fence shock. Use insulated pliers.
Hope this helps.

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Steve450

11-21-2003 17:25:43




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 Re: Re: I'M HAVING BIG TROUBLE WITH MY IH 444 TRAC in reply to Joe, 11-20-2003 18:51:17  
Our 2010 JD did the same thing. Had a chunk of rust in the gas tank. When it would stop we had to pull the fuel line off and connected a piece of rubber hose to it and blew into it. Cured it short term (to get back to the shed). Eventually
it passed and haven't had a problem since.



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John 51

11-21-2003 05:33:26




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 Re: Re: I'M HAVING BIG TROUBLE WITH MY IH 444 TRAC in reply to Joe, 11-20-2003 18:51:17  
I had exactly the same problem with my JD 730 gas. When it ran, it was terrific. Then it would just quit.
I tried everything mentioned here. Spent hours on it and it made no difference. Then about three years ago the problem disappeared . Never happened again. SO I don't know what caused it or what fixed it. It certainly wasn't me.



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marlowe

11-20-2003 18:04:18




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 Re: I'M HAVING BIG TROUBLE WITH MY IH 444 TRACTOR in reply to Rick, 11-20-2003 04:50:32  
ih like ford use a roll pin to told the dist. gear on the shaft. pull cap and grab the rotter and try to turn it if it moves you found the trouble.



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Mickey

11-20-2003 16:13:21




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 Re: I'M HAVING BIG TROUBLE WITH MY IH 444 TRACTOR in reply to Rick, 11-20-2003 04:50:32  
I have a 444 that did somewhat as yours does. I run a tractor shop and a greenhouse and I work on the tractors myself. After a day of fooling with the 444 I pulled it in the shop and found the following problems. (1)The plastic ventura in the carb had partially eroded. (2) The wiring harness had deteroriated on the distributor side, and the voltage would vary. (3) Points were always a problem. I replaced the ventura, wiring harness, and installed electronic ignition, including the new coil. The electronic ignition was the best addition. I believe that was the main trouble. It has ran well for a year now. and it is nice to be rid of the points.

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OK-AL

11-20-2003 14:48:45




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 Re: I'M HAVING BIG TROUBLE WITH MY IH 444 TRACTOR in reply to Rick, 11-20-2003 04:50:32  
Try replacing the coil. Many times a coil will quit working properly or entirely when it gets hot. After it cools off, it starts working again.

OK-AL



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CH

11-20-2003 13:37:26




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 Re: I'M HAVING BIG TROUBLE WITH MY IH 444 TRACTOR in reply to Rick, 11-20-2003 04:50:32  
Hey Rick,

Just a stretch, but does the starter turn strong when you try to restart it hot? Had a Chevy Malibu once where the belt for the alternator was turning but not turning the alternator. Same symtoms. Drove me crazy cuz the starter would turn fine. It would only not turn at highway speed. Put a meter on your battery and make sure it's charging.



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Tom-nj

11-20-2003 09:18:08




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 Re: I'M HAVING BIG TROUBLE WITH MY IH 444 TRACTOR in reply to Rick, 11-20-2003 04:50:32  
Rick

As stated fuel and gas are the key items to try to isolate.
I also have a 444. I can share with your frustration.

Sometimes problems will act concurrently.
I had a floating cap inside the gas tank that would periodically find its way and block the fuel from entering the carbureator.This resulted in unpredictable stops and backfires. Just when I thought all was well it stalled again when I touched the ignition switch. Then I noticed that the electric fuel pump was not clicking. Upon further inspection there was a bad connection from the iginition switch to the electric fuel pump. Perhaps you should drain and vacuum the fuel tank and take a hard look at the ignition switch.
Good luck

Tom

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TimC

11-20-2003 09:07:35




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 Re: I'M HAVING BIG TROUBLE WITH MY IH 444 TRACTOR in reply to Rick, 11-20-2003 04:50:32  
Does it lug down and then die when under a load.
Does it miss a little then die when under a load.
Unless someone has toyed with the valve adjustments they never get to close on their own they only get looser.


WD-40 will not hurt the inside of the dist cap or the points for that matter. Spray it down and the inside of the dist and don't wipe it off. If it cures the problem the dist may have a crack you can't see. If it does then throw it away and feel free to wipe everything else down.

One more off the wall suggestion is to take a peice of copper wire and screw it under a bolt on the engine anywhere. Attach the other end to the distributor any where you can find some clean metal. Just keep it off the terminal post connecting to the points. This will make sure you are not loosing the ground to the distributor causing a weak spark or miss. I have seen this problem but ususally it just doesn't start.

The next thing would be to check the insulator that goes thru the distributor housing and see if when it gets warm the metal lug is shorting against the housing.

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ASE DUDE

11-20-2003 07:26:34




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 Re: I'M HAVING BIG TROUBLE WITH MY IH 444 TRACTOR in reply to Rick, 11-20-2003 04:50:32  
Are you sure the valves are set correctly? You may want to doublecheck them. When the engine warms up, the valves expand and the clearance decreases. Are you sure the engine isn't overheating?



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walter

11-20-2003 07:18:07




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 Re: I'M HAVING BIG TROUBLE WITH MY IH 444 TRACTOR in reply to Rick, 11-20-2003 04:50:32  
I am not sure what is causing your problem, but wd40 is a not a good product to spray on electrical connections. It will coat the contacts and cause connection problems.



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Allan

11-20-2003 06:33:18




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 Re: I'M HAVING BIG TROUBLE WITH MY IH 444 TRACTOR in reply to Rick, 11-20-2003 04:50:32  
Rick,

What is the voltage at the primary side of the coil running at?

Are the distributor bushings wobbled out?

Is that coil wire a carbon wire?

You say you have an electrical fuel pump. Is there a flexable rubber hose on the intake side of this pump that is sucking shut? Just because there is fuel in the 'see thru' filter', does not mean it is moving anywhere.

Is the fuel tank cap vent open?

Some more ideas,

Allan

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rustyfarmall

11-20-2003 06:26:02




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 Re: I'M HAVING BIG TROUBLE WITH MY IH 444 TRACTOR in reply to Rick, 11-20-2003 04:50:32  
Here's one more idea, remove the valve cover and take a look, start the engine and see how much oil is being pumped up to the top of the engine, is everything in the valve train getting sufficient oil? If you are not getting enough oil, the valves could actually be seizing up in the valve guides when the engine is warmed up good, and when the engine cools down, the valves will be free again. An intake, or exhaust valve stuck open when you try to restart the engine will cause backfiring.

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Allan

11-20-2003 06:36:57




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 Re: Re: I'M HAVING BIG TROUBLE WITH MY IH 444 TRAC in reply to rustyfarmall, 11-20-2003 06:26:02  
Rusty,

I agree with you. That backfiring, in my opinion, is the key to this whole puzzle.

Allan



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Fred OH

11-20-2003 06:10:09




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 Re: I'M HAVING BIG TROUBLE WITH MY IH 444 TRACTOR in reply to Rick, 11-20-2003 04:50:32  
Rick...I noticed that you didn't use the standard method of identifying whether it's fuel or electrical related. When it dies...spray some ether in the air intake...if it starts- you found the source of the problem (fuel). Also, when it dies...check the plug wires for fire...if none- you found it's electrical.

Reminds me of a story told to me once...A bunch of guys were just finishing up a days work on a railroad section gang and most were standing around one car with the hood up that wouldn't start. No one positively identifying the problem. Coming by was a fellow that never drove, always rode with someone else and knew absolutely nothing about the mechanics of an automobile. One fellow said "Bob, what's the matter with it"? Bob never missed a step as he headed for his ride and commented "she needs a new commencer". That story is probably 40 years old and still going. I guess we need Bob to walk by your tractor. Fred OH

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Rick

11-20-2003 10:12:05




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 Re: Re: I'M HAVING BIG TROUBLE WITH MY IH 444 TRAC in reply to Fred OH, 11-20-2003 06:10:09  
what is the best way to see if i have electric. at which point of the system does it start. I've also run a jumper wire from the battery to the + side of the coil. that did nothing. i haven't tried the ether trick but i will.



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Fred OH

11-20-2003 17:23:15




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 Re: Re: Re: I'M HAVING BIG TROUBLE WITH MY IH 444 in reply to Rick, 11-20-2003 10:12:05  
When she quits...pull a plug wire off...stick a clean 1/4" bolt in the wire end and hold it near good clean ground metal on tractor (1/8" away)...while cranking (switch on!)...look for spark jumping from bolt to ground. If no spark jumping across the gap...you have electrical problems...coil, distributor, ignition switch, resistor (if equipped) or wiring. Start tracing...let us know your results. Fred OH

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Allan

11-20-2003 05:59:40




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 Re: I'M HAVING BIG TROUBLE WITH MY IH 444 TRACTOR in reply to Rick, 11-20-2003 04:50:32  
Rick,

I'm not familiar with your tractor at all, so please bear with me.

Is that thing still backfiring when you try to start it after it has quits?

Also, back away from the trees for a minute so that you can see the forest: It only takes three things for an engine to run. A fuel/air mixture, a spark for the ignition, and compression.

What is missing when it quits? What is not there? Is it fuel it lacks, is it the compression, or is it the spark?

I still say that the backfiring upon trying to restart is telling you that there is a problem in the ignition system somewhere. It is trying to run, but can't; the spark is coming in at the wrong cycle and is producing that backfire.

How about the iginition switch?

Trying to help as I know you are frustrated, but remember, it is just a chunk of iron and there is a root cause there somewhere.

Allan

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Rick

11-20-2003 09:59:56




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 Re: Re: I'M HAVING BIG TROUBLE WITH MY IH 444 TRAC in reply to Allan, 11-20-2003 05:59:40  
Yes, it back fires big time when i try to restart it. enough to blow the flapper off the muffler. It has good compression, i say that because when i try setting the points it takes me forever to get the high point to set the point gap. i finally got smart and took a couple plugs out and it didn't kkep turning after i wanted it to stop. Fuel i think is there, i put a see thru fuel line filter right in front of the carb. and it has fuel in it and the pump will fill it if i turn the key on. I've considered replacing the points and condenser with an electronic ignition but i'm afraid i'll ruin it somehow with the problem i have now. like i said everything was fine and running before this dieing stuff started. i wasn't tinkering or fixing anything, I was useing it to move logs and all of a suddened it died!

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Allan

11-20-2003 11:13:35




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 Re: Re: Re: I'M HAVING BIG TROUBLE WITH MY IH 444 in reply to Rick, 11-20-2003 09:59:56  
Rick,

We're getting there.

That big of a backfire tells me we are getting fuel and a lot of it....the exhaust is full of it, in fact (hence, the explosion).

I am convinced that this problem is ignition related, but it could conceivably be a component, which is not even related.

For example, many years ago, I had a customer whose car would quit whenever he was going down hill.

To make a long story short, the little spring in front of the contact disk in the starter solenoid had broken in two. When the car tilted nose down, the little spring was shorting out the 12v bypass wire to the coil (contact) and thereby killing his ignition.

You’ve definitely got a head-scratcher going on here.

If it were mine, I would put a VOM across that distributor wire to ground and watch what the voltage does when the tractor quits, then also with the subsequent restart attempt.

I just think you are losing ignition.

Allan

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J Kirsch

11-20-2003 09:02:13




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 Re: Re: I'M HAVING BIG TROUBLE WITH MY IH 444 TRAC in reply to Allan, 11-20-2003 05:59:40  
I remember a 4 cylinder eng with a similar problem--start up, heat up and quit. The problem turned out to be that whoever installed the spark plug wires had them in the right order but 90 degrees late. Be sure you have #1 wire going to #1 plug etc. etc. This sort of thing is very frustrating---been there done that--Good luck.
J P in NY



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