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can someone explain A/C gauges

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dumb shepherd

06-24-2005 12:52:53




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when you take a truck to be rechaged there are 2 gauges/hoses coming out of the manifold. But if you buy one of those cheap refill kits there is only a can, a tap, and a short hose. Can someone explain this to me?




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Brian in NY

06-27-2005 13:04:56




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 Re: can someone explain A/C gauges in reply to dumb shepherd, 06-24-2005 12:52:53  
I am by no means an A/C expert, so this may be the wrong answer..... but when my little truck with a R134 system stopped cooling well, I figured to go to auto supply store to get leak detector and figure out where it was leaking. Well, when I got there, I found that they have a self contained unit that does it all in one shot. It is a large can of refridgerant, with hose and gauge attached. The refridgerant includes oil/seal conditioner and leak sealer.
It was $20 or so. All you do is fire up the vehicle with the AC on, take off the low pressure cap, and hook up the bottle. Take a baseline reading, and then pump the needed amount of refridgerant into the system and ....wala! It's cool again! I did that about 2 months ago, and have been checking the pressure every week or so...and haven't lost any more coolant. Looks like the leak sealer worked. How can you beat that for $20?

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T_Bone

06-25-2005 23:22:27




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 Re: can someone explain A/C gauges in reply to dumb shepherd, 06-24-2005 12:52:53  
Hi Shepherd,

I recently posted a short explantion of refrigeration theory that should explain why you need to you two gauges when elvaluating any refrigerant system.

Pay close attention to the section that talks about temperature pressure relationships.

Refrigeration theory:

To have a complete understanding of the refrigeration process we need to define some rules to follow as it matters to use the correct terminology when designing or servicing heating, ventalating or refrigeration systems.

1) Cold only occurs at minus 460ºR or absolute zero. Above that we only have a absence of heat or can be stated as lack of heat. This is very important to understand as it helps in understanding all refrigeration or heating processes.

2) The accepted slang term AC does not mean "cold" as the true meaning stands for "air conditioning", that is to heat, cool, clean, humidifiy or dehumidifiy common air.

3) The second Law of Thermodymanics states:
"heat flows from a higher temperature source to a lower temperature source" This is really important to understand when dealing with refrigeration or heating as one can quickly figure direction of heat transfer at any point in a process.

4) There's several types of common heat exchangers:
a) air to air b) air to liquid
c) liquid to liquid

5) All refrigerants have a direct relationship between temperature and pressure (called it's T & P) that is to say that a refrigerant at 100º may have a pressure of 196psig and at 0º a pressure of 24psig.

With knowing the T & P of the refrigerant I would know I'm dealing with refrigerant 22 (R22) using the above numbers.


Example #1:
A simple refrigeration process can be explained as where liquid refrigerant (from the bottom of a condensor) is fed into a small diameter orifice (capillary tube) that runs into a larger tube (evaporator). As the refrigerant enters the evaporator the refrigerant expands into saturated vapor (vaporized fluid) thus dropping pressure thus lowering it's temperature, hence the refrigerating effect has just completed.

Using the above T & P already discussed above, the condensor would have a temperature of 100º and the evaporator would be at 0º thus our evaporator would try to gain heat from it's surrounding area as stated by the 2nd Law of Thermodymanics.

Notice we never talked about the use of a compressor in the above example to obtain the refrigerating effect as only T & P was responsible for the cause of refrigeration effect as explained by the 2nd law of Thermodynamics.

Some refrigerated semi trailers and rail cars use a expendable refrigerant based upon the above example.

A typical outdoor HP uses the same above therory of refrigerating effect. A HP just adds a reversing valve for direction of refrigerant flow and a compressor for reusing the refrigerant with-in a closed loop refrigerant system. 0n a typical HP we want to use the evaporator as a condensor sometimes and the condensor as a evaporator sometimes and a reversing valve accomplishs this. The compressor pumps refrigerant from the evaporator to the condensor.

To keep this short as possible we will not address Latent heat of compression, the effect that a compressor adds to the refrigeration cycle.

Notice we never mention using any fans for the above HP unit to complete it's refrigeration cycle nor to obtain the refrigerating effect. Depending on the desired results would we add a fan.

During the time that our outdoor HP is in the heating mode, the condensor is used as a evaporator. That means were trying to refrigerate the ambient air and thus obtain heat, (see the begining of example #1). As the HP continues to run the outside eveporator begins to ice from trying to absorb heat from the surrounding air as well gathers moisture. To defrost this ice build up we momentary reverse the refrigerant flow thus melting the ice and the "swoosh" sound our HP makes when it reverses refrigerant flow.

Now to increase the heat flow to our HP evaporator during heating mode we can add a liquid to liquid heat exchanger with taking heat from a ground source hence the name geothermal. Now that ground source heat could be obtained form well water or a secondary coil located with-in water with a ground source heat sink.

There's many different ways to accomplish a ground source heat gain but a liquid to liquid heat exchanger has the highest efficiency ratio.

T_Bone

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Can't even use my name

06-26-2005 19:48:10




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 Re: can someone explain A/C gauges in reply to T_Bone, 06-25-2005 23:22:27  
So to simplify things if we can, what would the the desirable pressures in and automotive R134a system be with an ambient temp of about 80 F.



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T_Bone

06-27-2005 04:18:25




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 Re: can someone explain A/C gauges in reply to Can't even use my name, 06-26-2005 19:48:10  
Hi Ceumn,

WE can't....lol (pun intended) :)

Auto refrigeration is one of the most hardest systems to balance. Here you have a system with varible condsensor air flow & compressor pump flow then add a few different schemes to meter the refrigerant into the evaporator. Wow I could write for days trying to cover all the different systems that are just on auto's.

Probably the best advice I can give, would be to pull a good vacuum on the system, then refill with the mfg suggested refrigerant charge weight. This will be the correct charge in 90% of the systems.

Yes, with gauges attached I can tweek the system to yield another 5% to 10% but that would take alot of typing here just to explain one system.

Remember, refrigerant doesn't get used up, it only leaks out so it a system that needs refrigerant has a leak somewhere.

Even GM can't grasp that simple concept. My new car has a leak that GM refused to fix. One tech got close as it only leaks 12oz every two years but left the system undercharged by 24oz. After talking with a GM engineer I found that I was talking to a dead wall as this GM engineer thinks with ambient at 95º the condsensor liquid temperature should also be 95º. Well I asked, how then can the refrigerant return to a liquid state? No answer. They even wrote that on my paper work...lol

I just gave up and fixed the system my self.

T_Bone

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Charles (in GA)

06-24-2005 19:17:24




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 Re: can someone explain A/C gauges in reply to dumb shepherd, 06-24-2005 12:52:53  
Buy a book, thats what I did over 20 years ago, bought several different auto A/C manuals, that explained theory, operation, servicing, etc. Its not real easy to explain in a nutshell, except that without the high pressure gauge (the red one) its like playing with fire, you have no clue if you are going to blow up something or break something, of if things are really working OK or if there is a stoppage or stuck expansion valve, etc.

I bought a real good set of gauges years ago, added to the collection, clutch pullers adapters, 6 ft hoses, a vac pump, and the like. finally bought a set of R134 gauges about four or five years ago, didn't want to convert my others.

The tools and books have paid for themselves many times over thru the years and now I know about as much as many of the "professional" auto A/C service people, but you have to approach it in a professional manner and learn and understand what is happening or you will cost yourself more money (or injury to yourself) than you can imagine.

Charles

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I Like Case

06-24-2005 13:16:17




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 Re: can someone explain A/C gauges in reply to dumb shepherd, 06-24-2005 12:52:53  
The gauges show high pressure(red) coming out of the compressor and low pressure(blue)or vacuum on the suction side of the compressor. When you get a cheap refill kit like you are talking about you are assuming the system is low. If the system is full and your problem is somewhere else you just waste the new freon. Also the gauges are invaluable for checking the system against a leak. A small leak will show up quicker as a vacuum leak than as a pressure leak.

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