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Running problem - FIXED

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Dan

02-04-2007 06:19:40

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Well guys - I am happy to announce I finally solved my rough idle running problems! After rebuilding the carb four times, reaming every passage with a copper wire, filing manifold mating surfaces, swapping manifolds, replacing spark plugs, pulling the front mount distributor off 5 times, replacing the coil, replacing the condensor, and a whole host of other smaller things spanning several weeks - the fouth time to rebuild the carb yielded the answer.

I foolishly trusted that when you get a individually sealed bag that has the correct part number and application stamped on the label - that you got the right part. Not so with my Tisco economizer jet. The center hole was close to .085" - WAAAAY to large of a hole for the 8N MS carb I discovered. I found this out because ANOTHER sealed bag held what was lableled as a late 8N idle jet and the hole was much smaller than the other sealed late 8N idle jet in another package. So I started researching what the correct jet sizes should be on my TSX 241-B carb and found that the econimizer jet should be close to the same hole size as the main jet - mine was double the opening. I was rebuilding the carb to fix the trouble the other three times, but putting the same jets back in as they were new. I found an old economizer jet in my carb rebuild crash kit (I never throw anything away), stuck it in my carb, and whoo-laaah I can idle down so low I can count the fan blades.

Tisco strikes again!

Thanks for all your help on this one - it was a tough one. Oh, and watch those aftermarket parts with a weary eye.

Dan

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Hobo,NC

02-04-2007 18:11:02

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Re: Running problem - FIXED in reply to Dan, 02-04-2007 06:19:40

How kin a to big of a jet cause a to lean condition (add choke and it runs better don�t figger), although I kin see were it would run better wif the idle adjuster all the way out it needed all the extra air it could git. I also spec that�s why the propane had no effect and it should have made it run worst than better but you never stated why it did other than no difference but if it were that bad you may could not have made it enny richer, It had to huff�in black smoke. No wonder the spark toke the EZ way and followed the path of least resistance and did not jump to the electrode on the end of the plug, it wuz coated wif hydrocarbons (un burnt fuel). Fer as the jet I eyeballed and its sum�in you git use to when you have to make a living at this. Same wif the tractor parts, same wif auto parts. What I would like to here izz what you learned and not that a possible bad part woop�ed up on ya. I did not add enny more info cuzz I felt it wuz a fuel issue and really needed to be their to git a fell fer it. I don�t fell you have learned a thing sept swap�in parts fixed it. Think about this every thing on a old engine like a N izz adjustable, you kin adjust and play wif all the systems and if you understand what you are doing wif yer Saturday afternoon screwdriver other than if a little makes it better than more should make it mow�better then a conclusion to the problem should be simple as long as you have confirmed the basics. Basics izz what woops most folks, most of the time when I have a issue that I am unsure of I confirm the basics then once I know I have a engine that has good compression (more to it than a compression test but a starting point) good fuel delivery system and a good ignition system then I kin play with the adjustments. I never did think that a newly rebuilt engine would have a basic problem and felt that you had covered that rite well on the rebuild. You did throw a wranch into it when you installed a nutter carb from what we took as a known good runner and it failed the test. I take it you will dig into the 9n carb and find its problem also. I stated that I felt you still don�t git the propane trick or you have yet perfected it. If you ever do you will be ablem to confirm a carb/induction issue lean or rich. Now that you have a good runner go back and play wif the propane and git the feel fer what adding enrichment does to a good proper werk�in system you may also may lean the carb out and see how propane will nail a lean condition then maybe you kin git that magic feel fer what happens wif that Saturday afternoon screwdriver. Don�t let it git�ya tho Its not learned over night I am proof of that, I had to pay my dues. Still good to here a success story even if it puzzles me a little, congratulations I"ell drink to that.

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farmerdawn

02-04-2007 16:00:18

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Re: Running problem - FIXED in reply to Dan, 02-04-2007 06:19:40

WOOOHOOOO!!!!! ! Way to go, DAN!!!!!

Boy, have I learned a LOT from this, too! Thank you so much for sharing and describing all the steps!!

WOW!

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Carl S in NH

02-04-2007 11:37:23

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Re: Running problem - FIXED in reply to Dan, 02-04-2007 06:19:40

Happy endings sure are nice!

I'm glad you got your problem resolved. What's left to do on Deliah now before you can haul her out and start on that new to you 9N ?

Carl

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Dan

02-04-2007 14:00:35

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Re: Running problem - FIXED in reply to Carl S in NH, 02-04-2007 11:37:23

Technically, I only have to re-paint the footborads. I pulled them off this morning, sanded them down, and painted the backside. I made a cool discovery I didn't know about - Delilah has an original asbestos heat shield under the right side footboard to help keep you from getting hot foot syndrom from the muffler underneath. It was in great shape, but some of the material was dropping out as I was turning it too and fro. I grabbed my good painting mask (the kind with replaceable filters) and stayed upwind as I worked on them.

However, I also "need" to replace the right side brake actuator shaft. I noticed when I had her apart a few years back that the shaft ball end was corroded and in rough shape. I ground it down to roughly round again and put it back in. I got a good replacement a few years back that I have been waiting on a time to put it in. Now may be that time.

Uh oh - I feel mission creep starting...

Dan

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farmerdawn

02-04-2007 16:04:16

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Re: Running problem - FIXED in reply to Dan, 02-04-2007 14:00:35

I would try to help you with that mission creep, buddy, but...well...I say GO FOR IT! LOL

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Empennage

02-04-2007 11:31:23

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Re: Running problem - FIXED in reply to Dan, 02-04-2007 06:19:40

Wow. I sure am glad you posted this because it was a terrific learning experience. I"m very happy for you that you found the problem! Of course I"m a little disheartened as well, I mean don"t get me wrong I"m glad you fixed it but since I watch NO sports at all (it"s Super Bowl Sunday and I dont even know who"s playing) and just got through fixing some plumbing at my Mothers house and Dawn isnt getting any shop time, well, now what? ;)

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farmerdawn

02-04-2007 16:03:12

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Re: Running problem - FIXED in reply to Empennage, 02-04-2007 11:31:23

Well DAWN is happy to report that today MY pipes thawed and then the drain thawed, and I got through the data processing I needed to get through, and it got up to FORTY DEGREES!!!!! So I just told Jo & Carol I am going to the shop tomorrow afternoon NO MATTER WHAT. Stay tuned... (cue the theme song; don't know what that is exactly, but I'm sure we can come up with something) :-)

Dawn

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Empennage

02-04-2007 16:46:03

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Re: Running problem - FIXED in reply to farmerdawn, 02-04-2007 16:03:12

YIPPIE!!! :) (jumping up and down clapping)

Uh, I mean, good for you Dawn.

Glad your pipes are unfrozen!

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Dell (WA)

02-04-2007 10:15:24

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Re: Running problem - FIXED in reply to Dan, 02-04-2007 06:19:40

Dan..... ..thanks for the "final" update. Did you see my comments about jet-sizes on your yesterday post? and about side-pointing idlemix adjust procedure? (max rpms at idle)..... ...Dell

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Dan

02-04-2007 10:29:17

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Re: Running problem - FIXED in reply to Dell (WA), 02-04-2007 10:15:24

Sure did, I appreciate the info. One thing I discovered is the idle runs best when I open the MAIN adjusting needle about 2 1/4 turns, but at high RPMs it pops until I screw it back in to the normal 1 1/2 turns area. I mean it is a very audible change in smoothing out under idle when I turn out the main needle. I can't seem to find a happy medium between the idle and high RPM circuits. I do know one thing for certain though - I DO NOT need to clean my carb again :-)

Dan

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Joe (IN)

02-04-2007 09:00:14

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Re: Running problem - FIXED in reply to Dan, 02-04-2007 06:19:40

Good deal, Dan. But didn't you put the carb off the '39 on it and get the same thing?!? Just want to make sure I understand what all went down.

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Bob

02-04-2007 09:16:33

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Re: Running problem - FIXED in reply to Joe (IN), 02-04-2007 09:00:14

That's what I thought, too, that he had ruled out the carb by subbing a "known-good" unit.

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Dan

02-04-2007 09:56:58

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Re: Running problem - FIXED in reply to Bob, 02-04-2007 09:16:33

Actually, I did say it ran somewhat better on the replacement carb, but I still could not get it to run smooth on idle. I also discovered I had my timing advanced to far. This also helped a great deal with my hard starting and rough running issue at idle. I put the selector on the side of the distributor to a tad up from the middle. It doesn't "sound" as good as when I had it advanced, but it "runs" better (if that makes any since)

I am sure it was a combination of things, but the economizer jet was the biggest player in this issue.

HTH,
Dan

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Bob

02-04-2007 09:59:05

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Re: Running problem - FIXED in reply to Dan, 02-04-2007 09:56:58

Have you verified how close to TDC it "fires" at slow idle?

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Dan

02-04-2007 10:24:54

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Re: Running problem - FIXED in reply to Bob, 02-04-2007 09:59:05

Not sure how to correctly answer your question, but I used a timing light on my white TDC mark I put on the crankshaft pulley to discover I was too far advanced in my timing. Once I got it close, it ran much better as far as idling performance and such, but is delayed a bit on a quick snap of the throttle and the exhaust note does not sound as smooth. I probably need to advance it a bit to get the mark closer to TDC, but the engine does to "run" as well that way.

Sorry for the neophyte answers to your question - I am learning...

Dan

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Bob

02-04-2007 11:44:15

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Re: Running problem - FIXED in reply to Dan, 02-04-2007 10:24:54

Are you saying base timing is now AFTER TDC?

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Dan

02-04-2007 14:01:53

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Re: Running problem - FIXED in reply to Bob, 02-04-2007 11:44:15

Yes - just a tad. I don't know exactly how much, but I would guess about 4 degrees or so.

Dan

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Florida Boy

02-04-2007 07:57:23

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Re: Running problem - FIXED in reply to Dan, 02-04-2007 06:19:40

Congrats! I'm still working towards that light at the end of the tunnel . . . . . hopefully it's not a train.

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RustyFarmall

02-04-2007 07:53:44

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Re: Running problem - FIXED in reply to Dan, 02-04-2007 06:19:40

Dan, I used to have the same opinion of Tisco. I say used to. Tisco is making great strides in improving the quality of their parts. They realized that if they were to remain in business they had to do it right or not do it at all. I used to recommend that anyone needing a carb kit for a Farmall tractor should get it from the IH dealer at a price of about $90. I since have recieved several kits from Tisco that are every bit as good, for about $32 or less retail.

You need to contact your Tisco dealer and tell him of your troubles. Tisco cannot make improvements if they are not aware of a problem.

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Dan

02-04-2007 10:19:34

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Re: Running problem - FIXED in reply to RustyFarmall, 02-04-2007 07:53:44

I have contacted my dealer SEVERAL times regarding the quality of the Tisco parts they are selling, and I am buying (or returning). The response I have recieved is they are just as frustrated as I am because they keep telling their supplier and Tisco is not doing anything about it.

You may support Tisco - and that is fine. However, on this project ALONE I have recieved a manifold that did not have flat mating surfaces, a head that was thicker than stock requiring me to go out and obtain longer non-standard studs, thinner than acceptable hydraulic pump valve chamber gaskets that required me to drive 20 miles to the nearest New Holland Dealer to obtaint the correct thickness gaskets so my pump could be installed, hydraulic piston o-rings that were too small requiring another trip to my New Holland dealer, incorrect bushing and seal sizes, and basically cheap ill-fitting parts from China and Tiawan (not to say you CAN'T get decent parts from these countries, but these weren't) that I had to modify or send back requiring my time, money, gas, and effort. If this is making great strides in their quality of parts - I guess I have been extremely lucky in the past.

Don't get me on a roll here, I have never seen more CRAP from any parts supplier as I have from Tisco within the last year or so. My dealer was very appologetic and took parts back that I bothered to return, but I do not feel you should be "happy" getting crap that you have to either modify or trash brand new out of box! This is a perfect example - the jet hole was more than DOUBLE the correct size. I have three seperate sealed bags with the same part number and discription idle jet, but one is a different hole size than the other two. Who would suspect brand new parts FIRST in the troubleshooting process? How long did I dink with this problem replacing other parts in the troubleshooting effort because of INCORRECT PARTS! I am sure glad I wasn't a farmer requiring this fix to get a crop in (ok, I am stretching it a bit here, but you get my point).

Once again - this is ONLY my opinion. Yours must be much better than mine. I appreciate your input and respect it, but feel much differently based on my personal experience. Sorry for the rant, that just hit a sore spot.

Dan

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8N'r--WI

02-04-2007 07:25:13

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Re: Running problem - FIXED in reply to Dan, 02-04-2007 06:19:40

Dan--great to here that you found out what the problem was. That must have been frustrating!! Your persistance, diagnostic skills,and "never give up" attitude are amazing. Thanks to your updates as well the always helpful posts from others on this issue--I learned a bunch. Almost makes me want to go out to the garage today and start a project---only it is a bit on the chilly side, at -18 degrees today!!!---Tim

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Dan

02-04-2007 10:31:59

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Re: Running problem - FIXED in reply to 8N'r--WI, 02-04-2007 07:25:13

Thanks for the kind words. I have been out in my garage the last week or so in 35 degree temps. Ok - so that does not impress you, but here in Texas that is COLD :-)

Dan

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Ken S.

02-04-2007 07:09:37

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Re: Running problem - FIXED in reply to Dan, 02-04-2007 06:19:40

Good deal Dan, I know I've learned something here, time to quit buying TISCO CRAP.

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Dan

02-04-2007 10:35:29

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Re: Running problem - FIXED in reply to Ken S., 02-04-2007 07:09:37

Unfortunately Ken, there are MANY parts that can only be obtained from Tisco. Heck, I have even gotten parts from my New Holland dealer that they get from Tisco. All I am saying is look at EVERY part you get from them as there is something wrong with it and address that problem BEFORE you put it on. Mic it, measure it, verify it, inspect it - you get the point. I truly do hope they get their act together.

Dan

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RustyFarmall

02-04-2007 12:34:58

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Re: Running problem - FIXED in reply to Dan, 02-04-2007 10:35:29

Exactly, you may think you are dodging the quality issue by going to another supplier, but guess where they get their parts from? Same parts, different package.

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dro

02-04-2007 06:35:13

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Re: Running problem - FIXED in reply to Dan, 02-04-2007 06:19:40

Good job! That was one of the most informative threads I have read in my short (2 year) life as an old iron buff. I followed it to at least two sites. Tons of troubleshooting tips and a sitting around the garage kind of atmosphere. Thanks. Don

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Dan

02-04-2007 06:37:56

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Re: Running problem - FIXED in reply to dro, 02-04-2007 06:35:13

Yep - that is what makes these boards so nice. There are hundreds of knowledgable folks that have been in your shoes and tell you what they did, or would do, to fix it.

It's all about keeping old iron running and I thank the folks that take the time to help out.

Dan

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Paul Schultz

02-04-2007 06:54:48

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Re: Running problem - FIXED in reply to Dan, 02-04-2007 06:37:56

Congrats. I learned a great deal following your troubles as well.

Paul.

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