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1948 8n-- no spark

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jab

08-21-2006 19:24:37




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I have a 48 8n with a front mount, and 12 volt system. I have been using it for probably 20 hours every year for the last three years with no problems. This year, I mowed for about three hours one weekend, and the next weekend I was only 45 min into cutting when the tractor died. It had lost spark. I traced the power through the keyswitch, through my 1/2 ohm 20 watt resistor, and to the coil. I decided my first step was to get a new coil, after finding my coil had so many ohms of resistance that the tractor did not work. Two weekends later, and a 2.5 ohm 12 volt coil later, the tractor started right up. I also replaced the keyswitch because i know they have a history of going bad. It ran perfectly for the first 45 min, then died. I let it cool off, then restarted and ran for about 5 min. I started to head back to camp when it died again. I stopped, waited, and restarted about 15 min later. # min lated it died again, right in teh middle of the small stream i have to cross, about 2 min away from the camp. I left it for the night, and now it does not have a spark, even after cooling down. Some one told me to change my condenser(thanks carl!), but i would like to know what else could be my problem before i go there because the tractor is 2 hrs away from me, and the new holland dealership is an hour beyond that. thank you for all of your help. jab

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Phil (NJ,AZ,Sask)

08-22-2006 02:31:37




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 Re: 1948 8n-- no spark in reply to jab, 08-21-2006 19:24:37  
[quote]Two weekends later, and a 2.5 ohm 12 volt coil later, the tractor started right up.[/quote]

Jab, The original 12V coil was ~ 4.0 ohms but that was its own problem. The newer 12 Volt coil you got is 2.5 Ohms and requires a OEM Ballast instead of the .5 ohm.

You can keep installing a .5 ohm and burn up good coils.. your choice!



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souNdguy

08-22-2006 05:27:52




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 Re: 1948 8n-- no spark in reply to Phil (NJ,AZ,Sask), 08-22-2006 02:31:37  
Phil.. 3 ohm is a standard primary value for a 12v coil. You can buy off-the-shelf round can coils likethis.. the NAPA IC14SB

The square coils that are labeled as 12v are about 2.5 ohm coils.. thus the need for the 1/2 ohm dropping ressitor.

The oem ballest resistor is for use with the 6v square coil. If you run the 6v square coil on 12v, you need the oem ballast resistor, and a dropping resistor like the 8ne10306.

Do some online research.. It's easy to find graphs showing coil ohm values and the resistors used to make them work. They all fall at 2.8-3.2 ohms... Putting 3ohms in the middle.. etc.

Soundguy

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Phil (NJ,Az,Sask)

08-22-2006 14:07:03




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 Re: 1948 8n-- no spark in reply to souNdguy, 08-22-2006 05:27:52  
Soundguy, [quote] Phil.. 3 ohm is a standard primary value for a 12v coil. You can buy off-the-shelf round can coils like this.. the NAPA IC14SB[/quote]

The IC14sb is a low RPM coil used on old Jeep & Checker Motors, 4 & 6 cyl engines. 3 ohms is not a normal automotive 12 coil. The hi-performance coils will be 1 ohm or less.

The round coil is oil filled and robust but the front mount is not, although some believe that little elves are responsible in redistributing melted tar back to the top of the coil or that some other unknown phenomena will overcome gravity. The physical properties of overheated Copper are well known, brittle, discolored & resistive (in spots) This is responsible for most household fires when a new receptacle is installed, because of a loose overheated connection, without re-stripping the old wiring to good copper. (oxidation is not the same as discoloration)


The OEM 6 volt Front Mount normal 6 volt thermal dissipation is 9 watts, with Ballast. If the ballast is bypassed watts = 49 and this results in over heat damage.

A coil with 2.5 ohms & .5 resistor will need to dissipate a MAX of 57.6 watts (4.8 X 4.8)x 2.5

A coil with 2.5 ohms & OEM Ballast will only need to dissipate a Max of 23 watts (3 X 3)X 2.5

If the tractor "starts" & runs with the OEM ballast you have a ~ 3:1 thermal advantage.

JMHO

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uh . . . Dell (WA)

08-22-2006 18:08:02




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 Re: 1948 8n-- no spark in reply to Phil (NJ,Az,Sask), 08-22-2006 14:07:03  
Yeah Phil..... ...3:1 thermal advantage and WEAK SPARKIES. You know better.

You know the "infamous ballast resistor" is nominally about 1.4 ohms at operating temperature. (it ranges from about 0.4 when really cold to about 1.7 when really hot) and when I went to school, 2.5 + 1.4 = 3.9. This means a reduced current flow in the coil primary winding and resultant WEAKER magnitic field to induce the high voltage secondary. Its all about electo-magnetic theory. Its AMPS that make magnetic fields.

Interesting that you claim the NAPA IC14-SB is a low rpm coil for 4-cyl Jeeps and 6-cyl Checker cabs (Continental Motors flathead six?, I can't remember). Does that mean that our recommended useage as a real 12-volt coil that uses NO RESISTOR on 2000-rpm 4-cyl N-Engines is outta specs?..... ..respectfully, Dell

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Phil (NJ, AZ,Sask)

08-23-2006 01:14:48




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 Re: 1948 8n-- no spark in reply to uh . . . Dell (WA), 08-22-2006 18:08:02  
Dell, Your getting closer in your math but you mistake low current with the right (limited) current. The ~4.0 ohm (coil + Ballast) results in 3 Amps circuit current starting & 3+ running at 14.5 volts. The 3 Amps will blow your socks off.

The original 12 coil was closer to 4.0 ohms and your .5 ohm resistor was a good solution, an oem ballast doesn't work, but since they changed the coil to 2.5 ohms PPL are burning out coils. The only way that a coil will overheat is if the current is TOO high and that is a design fault, Wrong Components.

The choice is actually simple. If you are wrong the coil melts resulting in $$ damage. If I am wrong the tractor won't start & run but “no” damage is done and you can change it.

RE: 3 ohm round coils.. If the coil can dissipate the heat, and it can, why would anyone disagree with using that coil? My comment was to "Sounder's" 3.0 ohm comparing of the front mount coils ability to dissipate heat, of 58 watts, to that of a "proven" round coil that dissipates 70 watts. (Worst Case).

JMHO

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souNdguy

08-23-2006 05:53:41




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 Re: 1948 8n-- no spark in reply to Phil (NJ, AZ,Sask), 08-23-2006 01:14:48  
Phil.. A point... I didn't say that 3 ohms was a standard automotive coil.. to be fair.. i did say it was a standard primary resistance value.

I'm trying to locate my GM balalst resistor and coil cross reference chart. All the coils and ballast resistor combo's on that chart range from a total primary resistance value of 2.8 - 3.2 ohms.. with the vast majority of them setting right at 3 ohms.

Are you taking into account duty cycle?

Also.. your remark about jeeps?.. I recall these engines being evaluated for a military jeep evaluation.

As for the thermal advantage.. at what point do you start sacrificing 'reliable' starts and running in adverse conditions.. like lowered voltage due to worn and dirty connections.. etc.

For reference.. that last 12v square coil I gutted was potted solid to the top.. looked like epoxy potting. Note.. this was a plastic encased coil.. not a metal can encased one...

Soundguy

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souNdguy

08-23-2006 05:01:09




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 Re: 1948 8n-- no spark in reply to Phil (NJ, AZ,Sask), 08-23-2006 01:14:48  
Put the math to the proof then.. How come there are so many 12v front mount couils and half ohm resistors running around perfectly fine?

Soundguy



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Dell (WA)

08-21-2006 20:21:33




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 Re: 1948 8n-- no spark in reply to jab, 08-21-2006 19:24:37  
Jab..... ..you write..... ."it died again, right in teh middle of the small stream i have to cross"..... ..why do I suspect you might have "splashed" water on yer distributor? And that is the reason you can't seem to restart yer tractor. Many times the waterproofing gaskets for the 4-nipple frontmount cap git "lost".

Take yer cap off and letter dry-out. Blow on it, use WD-40. (WD stands for water dispersal, 40th formula tried)

Even though you claim you've replaced the squarecan coil, everything you've listed STILL points to a BAD COIL. (they've been known to be bad right from the dealer)

Reset yer points gap to 0.018 instead of 0.015. This will slow-down the heating of the coil guttz and maybe keep you running longer than 1/2hr..... ...Dell, yer self-appointed sparkie-meister

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jab

08-22-2006 05:20:18




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 Re: 1948 8n-- no spark in reply to Dell (WA), 08-21-2006 20:21:33  
Dell, im sorry i did not mention that the stream was dry until that night when a large thunderstorm hit. I will get a new coil and remove the 1/2 ohm 20 watt resistor and replace it with a new ballast resistor.
thanks, jab



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Dell (WA)

08-22-2006 12:44:03




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 Re: 1948 8n-- no spark in reply to jab, 08-22-2006 05:20:18  
Jab..... ....Iff'n you remove that 1/2-ohm 20 watt resistor, guess what? Yer goin' be OVERHEATING yer new 12-volt coil, toot-suite. And it will FAIL in about 1/2 hour. That resistor is what keeps the modern 2.5-ohm 12-volt coil living. The "infamous ballest resistor" is NOT the correct value, too much resistance, (1.4-ohms) and will cause WEAK SPARKIES. Do as I tell you or suffer yer ignorance..... ...respectfully, Dell

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jab

08-22-2006 14:23:38




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 Re: 1948 8n-- no spark in reply to Dell (WA), 08-22-2006 12:44:03  
Dell, thank you for all of your help. I already have the 1/2-ohm 20 watt resistor that you speak of. I guess I confused your post with Phil"s. Phil was the one who said "The newer 12 Volt coil you got is 2.5 Ohms and requires a OEM Ballast instead of the .5 ohm. You can keep installing a .5 ohm and burn up good coils.. your choice!" He said this and lead me to the fact to believe that i only need my ballast resistor (sorry for the confusion), and you are telling me to only use my 1/2-ohm 20 watt resistor. The tractor ran for the last 3 years with only the 1/2-ohm 20 watt resistor so I will get another new coil and continue to use only the 1/2-ohm 20 watt resistor. Thank you for all of your help!
jab

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