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gasoline grades and effect on 2-cyls.

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rob g

11-29-2004 18:52:09




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All,

new subject; more volatile that my last one (bad pun, I know)...

Has anyone noticed a difference between winter and summer grade gasoline in 2-cyls? I know that summer gas is really low in volatility (Think the proper term is the Reid Vapor Pressure)and has to be difficult for any carbed engine. Has anyone dynoed a tractor with summer vs. winter gas; likewise straight gas vs 10% ethanol.

Just wondering.

Take care,
Rob

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JD 50

12-01-2004 18:11:30




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 Re: gasoline grades and effect on 2-cyls. in reply to rob g, 11-29-2004 18:52:09  
Our local co-op has a Ninty-Plus gasoline that is blended with its own stabil and is designed to burn in new and old engines that used leaded fuel. I have some three years old in my F-14 and it starts on the second crank most times. It seems to do fine. I use it in my JD 50 also. I have had good luck with it. I do not know if it is availible everywhere.



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buckeye al

12-01-2004 15:13:32




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 Re: gasoline grades and effect on 2-cyls. in reply to rob g, 11-29-2004 18:52:09  
Seems about a year ago I read on this very site something about 3020 & 4020 GAS tractors being hard to start in the winter if using premium grade gasoline. Maybe I recall it all wrong but I thought it recommended NOT using the higher grade fuels because the LOWER the octane rating the easier it is to light assuming they're equally fresh fuels. Slight knocking on 87 goes away with an 89 or 92 rated fuel because the higher the octane rating of the gasoline, the harder it is to light it thus eliminating the knock.

I know a guy that swears this is true because he thought he was being nice to his immaculately rebuilt '37 A when he put some 93 in it. Ran great on it BUT.... with the 93 in it he usually had to pull it to start it. Oh it would start on the 93 but he was pooped after all the cranking! Got it home after the show he was at, drained it, poured in some cheap gas he had in the garage for his lawn mower & it started right up. Runs 87 in it all the time now & rarely has any trouble with it starting.

As for how MY tractors behave on different fuels through the year... The only thing I notice is the tendency for gasohol to take on water & separate more so than other fuels. When that happens I have to choke the devil out of them to get 'em going & usually have to open the carb needles considerably until it's burned up.

I use 87 rated fuel. Then again only my B's are gas tractors. With the exception of the 70 D all the rest are all fuels & they were happy with about anything runny enough to flow through the fuel lines!

For a breakdown of all the things in Gasoline (it is a real stew of various chemicals) take a look at www.chevron.com/prodserv/fuels/ bulletin/aviationfuel/pdfs/chapter10.pdf or www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp72-c3.pdf.

Octane (eight carbon atoms in the molecule) is one of the heavier parts of the mix in gasoline. The higher the octane rating, the 'heavier' the fuel.

After all is said & done I cheap out & buy the cheapest 87 I can find in town! Doesn't make either right or wrong, just sayin that's what I do.

Later.

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ChuckW

11-30-2004 03:51:39




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 Re: gasoline grades and effect on 2-cyls. in reply to rob g, 11-29-2004 18:52:09  
my local station advised me that they don't sell very much premium, consequently the fuel sits a long time, they advised regular as to the hi usage rate. I'd never considered that but if the higher price fuel is going dead in the tank, you're defeating the value. I can't see any difference. These old tractor don't need much octane anyway.



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JGC

11-29-2004 19:33:49




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 Re: gasoline grades and effect on 2-cyls. in reply to rob g, 11-29-2004 18:52:09  
A friend of mine who studies everything that he does says that premium fuels degrade more slowly than regular fuels. He also says that if you leave some gas in an open tin can in the sun for a couple of days, it won't light with a match because the volitile components have all vapourized away.

I always add the recommended amount of fuel stabilizer to my storage cans as soon as I pump it.


JGC

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buickanddeere

11-29-2004 19:26:17




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 Re: gasoline grades and effect on 2-cyls. in reply to rob g, 11-29-2004 18:52:09  
Main thing is not let the gasoline be exposed to the sun/heat and/or get old. The few volitile ends that easily vaporize will float away leaving you with a tank full of "high octane kerosene". Many show tractors have gasoline in them 1,2 even 3+ years old in them. No wonder the engine run poorly, foul plugs and soot up the ports. Aviation gas will keep for months or years while car gas can go sour in a month or two depending on storage conditions.

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J Chalk

11-29-2004 21:19:22




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 Re: gasoline grades and effect on 2-cyls. in reply to buickanddeere, 11-29-2004 19:26:17  
Will aviation fuel work in the old two cylinders and not hurt anything. I have a problem with my fuel going bad. I keep my tractors in a shop but I have trouble with the carburators getting gumed up. Would aviation fuel take care of that problem?



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dcotton

11-30-2004 02:24:46




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 Re: gasoline grades and effect on 2-cyls. in reply to J Chalk, 11-29-2004 21:19:22  
Airplane gas is 100 octane and much higher in lead (real Lead) than the old unleaded.. Unless you keep the tractor running warm or have plugs to handle the deposits you more than likely will lead foul out...



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buickanddeere

11-30-2004 13:30:18




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 Re: gasoline grades and effect on 2-cyls. in reply to dcotton, 11-30-2004 02:24:46  
Talking about 100LL, not the old 100/115 leaded from years ago. The new 100LL has just enough lead to slow valve seat recession in aircooled radial engines running at max boost & rpms at takeoff/climbing. Drain every bit of the tractor gas out so it doesn't taint the AV gas. Stuff runs fine but the octane is equivalent to 96 pump octane ROM + MON and divid that number by 2. More than plenty for something that 87 should do in. The advantage is just better storage and easier starts.

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Mike Aylward

11-30-2004 15:10:58




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 Re: gasoline grades and effect on 2-cyls. in reply to buickanddeere, 11-30-2004 13:30:18  
I will second everything buickanddeere said. Aviation fuel will only evaporate leaving nothing. There will be no varnish or anything that will cause trouble. It will burn in a working tractor just fine, but with it being a very "dry" fuel it should have a small amount of lubricant added to it, such as two-cycle oil or something similar that will stay suspended. A little oil is also a good thing to use in a tractor going into storage for the winter to keep the rust out of the fuel lines and carburetor bowl. The aviation fuel will "light" pretty easily so next spring you can just burn it and the added oil out of the tank, lines and carburetor, add new fuel and the tractor should be just as good as it was going into storage. Hope this helps. Mike

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Henry J

11-29-2004 19:18:20




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 Re: gasoline grades and effect on 2-cyls. in reply to rob g, 11-29-2004 18:52:09  
This is interesting.

Why is summer gas different than winter gas? I never knew or noticed a difference.



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rob g

12-02-2004 18:57:47




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 Re: gasoline grades and effect on 2-cyls. in reply to Henry J, 11-29-2004 19:18:20  
All, Some really good posts here; glad I raised the question. There are summer and winter grades of gasoline just like diesel. In fact, not only are there summer and winter grades but there are regional differences in gasoline composition due in part to ozone "non-attainment" areas as decreed by EPA. Of course, there are different octane levels available as you increase in altitude; the reduced amount of oxygen at higher altitudes decreases the need for the 92+octanes found in the flatlands. I think that the volatility issue was initially raised in response to the fact that cars leak gasoline vapor, especially on hot days. All automakers have (or have access to) environmental chambers where they crank the temp to approx. 120F to simulate a warm day in the southwest, then monitor the hydrocarbon levels in the chamber. They also chill the auto to see if seal set occurs. The tolerated hydrocarbon levels are low; impossible for a carb'ed engine to attain but not so difficult for an engine with fuel injection which essentially all are today.

The oxygenated fuels like ethanol help on CO emissions but do take up water. Has anyone noticed a drop in power with 90% gasoline, 10% ethanol vs. straight gas?

It sounds like the jury is mixed on the benefit of high octane but is leaning toward lower is better for most. I am not having any trouble starting on 93 octane but with a 55KV coil and electronic ignition, it should almost ignite water. I think I will slip down to 89 or 87; staying with 100% gas, and see if that shows any benefit. I'm not sure I can find aviation fuel to test the other end of the spectrum; there is a raceway in the area and I think they have racing fuel there; I would think that would be equivalent; your thoughts?

Thanks for the help and direction.

Rob

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JD-A

11-30-2004 07:20:18




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 Re: gasoline grades and effect on 2-cyls. in reply to Henry J, 11-29-2004 19:18:20  
Probably twenty years ago while teaching small engines to a group of college students, I learned that small quantities of gas that had been treated w/ STP gas teatment tended to last longer in the can, and cut the fouling way down inside the Briggs engines. This also has kept my weedeater from gumming up,after setting all winter it will still start in the 5th or 6th pull.I do the same for my '46 A. Treat gas cans w/ 1cap full of STP per gal. of gas.

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