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John Deere Tractors Discussion Forum
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JD 300 loader wont start

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Rob Perrier

11-10-2004 18:23:48




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Help please! Lucked on to this site while looking for help with JD 300 loader. very rare over here. Bought it recently from farmer who claimed it ran but had sat for a year. No radiator problems, but replaced worn gear and rod on injector pump. Weird type, no stop cable, not in manual but shown in parts book. Diesel to injectors, cranks over, used ether but no smoke, some crank resistance and also feels like compression when turned by hand? Don"t want to replace injectors if not needed or pull head off if I can"t get gasket / parts here. Judging by comments here, timing may be a little out but not enough to not start? Pump is a Roosa Master CBC3-1AL with a rod type speed / stop control. Could this be the problem? No idea how to adjust it - as I said, not in manual. Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated!

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jdemaris

11-10-2004 19:02:07




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 Re: JD 300 loader wont start in reply to Rob Perrier, 11-10-2004 18:23:48  
Getting engine parts won't be a problem, it's a very common engine - same as used in the 350 crawlers. The 300 tractor is basically an ag. 1020 tractor painted yellow - I've got two. The CB pump was commonly used in many Deere tractors including 350 and 450 crawlers, 1020, 2520, 3020s, and 4020s. John Deere declared it obsolete back in the late 70s and was selling change-over kits to put the JDB pumps on - if the CB failed. It's a good little pump, but many of the major parts for it were discontinued by RoosaMaster 25 years ago. It usually does not come with a mechanical shut off - but I don't know about your 300. RoosaMaster CBs usually have an electric fuel shut-off solenoid on the side of the pump with a "push-on" wire connector. So, the pump shuts off with the ignition key. Inside the shut-off solenoid is a little spring and a plunger. I've seen quite a few occasions where the plunger stuck, and the machine wouldn't run, so the operator would remove it and chuck it. Then the machine would run fine but you'd have to stall it to shut it off. Anyway, this is all probably moot since you say there is fuel at the injectors when cranking. You said the machine ran when last parked? If so, why did you replace the rack and pinion throttle gears? Were they stuck or worn out? I wonder if you have the gears out of time and it's not pumping fuel properly because it won't reach full-fuel position for starting. I seriously doubt the injectors are causing the problem. I could see one sticking, but not all three at once - and it would still start with two working. If you have a spare injector, or if you can get one out of the engine without breaking it, hook up an injector to an injector line hanging outside the engine where you can see the injector tip. Crank the engine and see if the fuel is coming out. It takes over 2000 lbs. of pressure to make it out of the injector, and if the pump is not making that pressure, it won't come out and the engine will not run.

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Rob Perrier

11-23-2004 19:39:53




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 Re: JD 300 loader wont start in reply to jdemaris, 11-10-2004 19:02:07  
Sorry about multiple postings but there is almost no one over in Oz who kmows about these old industrial loaders. 3 new injectors working fine but engine still cranks over, no smoke, compression about 300 - 400 psi on each cylinder. Just to be sure I pulled head off - gasket fine, no sign of blow by or any other problem. Stop solenid had been removed so where does this leave me? Pump timing?



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jdemaris

11-24-2004 05:51:00




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 Re: JD 300 loader wont start in reply to Rob Perrier, 11-23-2004 19:39:53  
I'm not sure I fully understand what you have done already. By the way, assuming you are in Australia, where does the term "Oz" come from? With your tractor, if fuel comes out of the injectors at, or near at, the correct time, and there is ample compression, it will fire. If compression is too low to create ignition, it should at least smoke. If you still have the head off, leave an injector hooked to a line, crank the engine, and observe when the injector fires. That particular cylinder should be near, or at, top-dead-center on the compression stroke. There isn't much gray area here . . . if the fuel comes out the injector, and the fuel is good, and it's coming out at the right time, and in proper quantity, and there is compression exceeding 350 PSI, it WILL fire. If, by chance all is okay except for low compression, try using some ether (starter fluid) and see if it at least smokes. Again, I'm not sure what you've already done. You had stated that no fuel was coming from the old injectors. Then, you replaced all three? It would be rare for an engine to have all its injectors blocked unless it had not been run in a very long time. The injector pump has to generate enough pressure to pass through an injector, which exceeds 2000 PSI. Once the pressure is reached, the check valve in the injector cracks open, and a spray of fuel escapes - hopefully a spray of atomized fuel. I've pulled out worn out injectors that just dribbled, but the engine still fired and ran. That is usually the reason for changing them - but they do get plugged at times. An engine with all its injectors plugged could result in injector pump damage (theoretically - I've never come across this situation). That particular engine is prone to breaking top piston rings. If the head is still off, take a close look and see if the top rings are still intact. Look close down the sides of the pistons, and also look for a clean carbon lines on the cylinder walls where the pistons reach the end of their travel (highest position). When the top rings shatter, the carbon line will be lower and not so well defined. Usually, with no top rings at all, the engine will still run - and be fairly smooth once hot, but otherwise - will start awful - perhaps only with ether - and will smoke like crazy when first started. Checking static, i.e. "initial" timing is no big deal - and that's all that counts to get it started. There is a bolt with a timing pin on the end of it where the engine bolts in. It is fastened to an inspection window that allows you to see the flywheel. You remove the bolt (3/4" wrench as I recall), reverse the bolt - thus sticking the pin in the hole, and gently rotate the engine by HAND (don't use the starter), while pushing in on the pin - until it slides into a hole that exists in the flywheel. THAT puts the engine on TDC (top dead center) for number one cylinder. Remember, the engine is a four-stroke-Otto cycle design so you can be 180 degrees off; i.e. a 50/50 chance of being right or wrong. You need to be sure when the pin goes in, the number 1 cylinder is on the compression stroke - and NOT the exhaust stroke. It's easy to tell, just look at the position of the valves - or - if the head is off - look down the pushrod holes and observe the position of the valve lifters. That point is when the injector pump is supposed to fire a fuel charge through the injector to that cylinder. The injector pump itself also has a pin in it for timing if its a CB pump. A JDB pump has a timing window instead with scribe lines.

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Rob Perrier

01-13-2005 15:19:02




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 Re: JD 300 loader wont start in reply to jdemaris, 11-24-2004 05:51:00  
Friday 14/1/05 jdemaris, I am truly confused,so will try to summarise and ask for advice. Firstly on motor. Head came off, valves reseated, new gasket, head back on, valve clearance adjusted. Saw clear carbon marks as described in cyls 2&3 as 1 stayed at TDC. Everything seems ok, except compression still about 300 to 350. On pump / injector side all injectors cleaned and tested, including a "loaner" I moved along to each line. As I hang fuel line 3 out to side, each squirts out a fine 5 star mist of fuel, so all ok. Assemble all with 770CCA battery to crank, engine turns over, squirt of quickstart (ether) - no firing AND no smoke! Theory one - timing still too far out to run, but where is fuel going? Theory two - engine cranking too slowly? Have not seen it start / run but plenty of evidence that it did run before I bought it. Battery new and bigger than spec but starter motor? Theory three - basic timing ok but pump timing out - no documentation on pump but have not changed pump timing. Any comment you could make would be helpful, wife muttering about yellow and lemon!

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Rob Perrier

11-29-2004 18:20:59




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 Re: JD 300 loader wont start in reply to jdemaris, 11-24-2004 05:51:00  
Again thanks for your advice and valuable experience. One theory about Oz is that its further down the alphabet and therefore less likely to be volunteered for something. Not really sure. When you identified the motor as a JD 1020 I found parts a lot easier to source, then able to replace injectors that didnt clean up. I still have the head off, as the head surface of cylinders 1 and 2 were badly pitted and no sign of an exhaust valve seal area. I am currently hand lapping the valves to restore some seat as I think bably worn seats may well be part of the problem. So where am I now? 3 injectors, cleant or new, spray diesel on the test line you suggested therefore pump presumably good. Despite compression guage reading of about 350 - 400, no smoke so off came the head and saw valves as above.As you said, there is a clear pencil line of carbon abuot 10 mm down the bore of 2 and 3, so I hope top rings still intact. Have bolt in flywheel to stop any movement with head off and 1 is at TDC. I will check the exhaust valve position when I put the head back on. The CBC pump has a Wired pin on the inner top which I have not touched, but I had to remove the wire on the throttle linkage to fit new rod and gear. As fuel goes to injectors I presume I reassembled it in roughly the right position. As you surmised, the stop solenoid has been removed. Once the head is back on with a new uppuer gasket set, I will try again. It still seems a puzzle.

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Rob Perrier

11-21-2004 17:17:21




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 Re: JD 300 loader wont start in reply to jdemaris, 11-10-2004 19:02:07  
Took your advice and moved an injector line out to side. Cranked engine and saw a regular healthy squirt of diesel. Cracked out the injector belonging to that line and hooked it up, then cranked over. Not a drop of diesel. Repeated process with other two injectors. Same thing.I think this could be one of two things. Pump operating but unable to reach the pressure required to squirt diesel through injector. Second would be that all three injectors are crook. Is this possible? Or likely?

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Rob Perrier

11-14-2004 13:41:10




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 Re: JD 300 loader wont start in reply to jdemaris, 11-10-2004 19:02:07  
Many thanks for helpful info as this is not common here in Oz. Have not been able to find wire to solenid yet but sure I will or can replace it now I know it exists - not in workshop manual or in parts book diagram - v helpful info. I replaced rack and pinion throttle gears due to excessive wear - they would move at either end of the range but not pass the middle as contact on worn section was in middle. Re injection pump timing, I made a guess as I have no information about timing the actual pump. If you could run thru this that would be great. I know fuel is reaching injectors but had no idea if it was being injected at the right point in the cycle as TDC mark on crankshaft pulley is gone. Thanks for the tip about the injector sight test, I will try this this pm. Really helpful as most older JD"s here were used for cropping / cotton so no one really knows what Ag tractor equals loader.

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