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Another Charging Question (Super M)

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Red Mist

05-02-2008 15:24:54




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Howdy, boys.

First, let me say I have read virtually every post from BobM. and John T. for the past 2 years about trouble shooting charging systems. Many I have copied and kept in my mechanical files. Maybe I'm a poor reader, or maybe ..... I don't know, except I cannot figure this one out.

It ain't charging.

1953 SM; 4-post regulator; 6V positive ground system. New battery, fully charged and tested. Running at WOT I get about 6.3 volts on my multi-meter across the battery posts. If I turn on the lights with the engine off, the ampmeter reads negative - so the amp meter is not wired backwards. If I jump from the gen to batt terminal with the engine running, I get an "off the chart" negative on the meter. I have polarized the gen at least 6 times (I know how - I done it on my SA and SH). I took the gen to the shop today and they tested it - including "motoring" - and it passed with flying colors. I have another generator on the shelf and I substituted it; it made no difference.

I did continuity tests on the Fld and Arm wires to make sure they did not get switched at the generator posts. They checked out right.

I am beginning to wonder if I have a bad gauge AND a bad VR - except when I jumped from the GEN to the BATT terminals on the VR, the voltage reading on the battery did not increase. Of course, the jumper wire got hot quickly and I had to disconnect, so that may account for no increase in voltage reading???

I removed the cover to the switch box and pulled the front cover and wiring out of the box to study it closely. The wiring is an exact match to the diagram in the SM Operator's Manual.

Boys, I need a little help from my friends. Show me some mercy here, please. All I can think of now is what an old man told me when I was a young man, to wit: "Son, if you want to live to be as old as me, don't fool around with electricity or married women."

As always, thanks in advance. mike

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Red Mist

05-03-2008 05:46:40




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 Re: Another Charging Question (Super M) in reply to Red Mist, 05-02-2008 15:24:54  
Thanks to all for the suggestions. I'm going to repeat the continuity checks on the gen and field wires to the generator posts; but this time I'm going to check them with the wires disconnected from the VR to make sure I'm getting no feed through the VR. I am now wondering if the field and arm wires are crossed with each other at the generator? That would explain the full "discharge" when I jump the VR from the batt to the gen posts. mike

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Red Mist

05-03-2008 15:48:53




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 Re: Another Charging Question (Super M) - GOT 'ER FIXED! in reply to Red Mist, 05-03-2008 05:46:40  

Red Mist said: (quoted from post at 05:46:40 05/03/08) Thanks to all for the suggestions. I'm going to repeat the continuity checks on the gen and field wires to the generator posts; but this time I'm going to check them with the wires disconnected from the VR to make sure I'm getting no feed through the VR. I am now wondering if the field and arm wires are crossed with each other at the generator? That would explain the full "discharge" when I jump the VR from the batt to the gen posts. mike


Well, I repeated the continuity checks from the VR to the generator - but this time with the ends of both leads disconnected. Thus, I got a true reading. (Last time I did not disconnect the leads.) Sure enough, the leads were crossed at the generator. I reversed them to correct the problem, polarized the generator and started it up to 3/4 throttle. Ammeter went positive and measured voltage taken at the battery posts showed 7.40V within just a few minutes. Sweet. This is the first job I've tackled on this beast that has not cost me an arm and a leg. Maybe we'll bond with each other afterall.....

Thanks again for all the offers of help.

mike

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Janicholson

05-03-2008 16:46:28




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 Re: Another Charging Question (Super M) - GOT 'ER FIXED! in reply to Red Mist, 05-03-2008 15:48:53  
You are welcome. I sit looking out the 17th floor of a Hilton hotel in rochester NY. It is raining hard, and I can just see the outline of Lake Ontario. Kinda nice. JimN



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Gene-AL

05-02-2008 18:06:15




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 Re: Another Charging Question (Super M) in reply to Red Mist, 05-02-2008 15:24:54  
Red,
That's a brow wrinkler you have there.

From your description, here's my take of one possibility: Check the connector on the Gen terminal of the VR and its wire to the Arm terminal on the Generator to see if the terminal itself, the wire attaching screw, or the wire might be shorted to ground at the regulator connector or along the length of the wire to the Arm on the Gen (That terminal on the OE type VR doesn't have much clearance from the VR base, which is grounded). With a shorted Arm/Gen terminal to ground, polarizing couldn't work, it couldn't charge, and you'd get a heck of a spark and a (-) pegged Ammeter connecting the Battery to the Arm.

I suppose it's possible that the insulator for Gen terminal inside the VR could be damaged if the wiring or the Gen terminal connector on the VR isn't the problem.
The feed-through insulator for the Arm terminal on the generator could be damaged, but you had it tested and also tried another generator, so that seems unlikely.

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Janicholson

05-02-2008 16:28:42




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 Re: Another Charging Question (Super M) in reply to Red Mist, 05-02-2008 15:24:54  
Test number one:
Remove the wire from the F terminal mon gen.
Start the tractor and set to 3/4 throttle.
Use a 14 ga jumper to ground the F terminal.
If it now charges, the gen is good and the cutout relay in the regulator is good. The ground of the regulator needs to be made absolute, or the regulator field control points windings, or resistors are toast.
If no charge, with the F terminal still grounded, and tractor still running at 3/4 throttle, jump the Gen and Bat terminals across the regulator with a solid piece of insulated copper wire, 12 ga, or 10 gauge. Make a good connection. If charging now the regulator is toast. Disconnect the big jumper before shutting down.
These tests completely eliminate the regulator one internal part at a time. Good Luck, JimN

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Red Mist

05-02-2008 17:28:07




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 Re: Another Charging Question (Super M) in reply to Janicholson, 05-02-2008 16:28:42  
Jim: I would say I did what you suggest - with the exception I did not disconnect the F wire from the generator. However, I will tackle it again tomorrow exactly as you say. Thanks. mike



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Joe Kimbriel

05-02-2008 16:14:13




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 Re: Another Charging Question (Super M) in reply to Red Mist, 05-02-2008 15:24:54  
Maybe it don't need charging. Could be fully charged and VR is doing it' job. Why do you think it's not charging?

Joe



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El Toro

05-02-2008 17:30:48




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 Re: Another Charging Question (Super M) in reply to Joe Kimbriel, 05-02-2008 16:14:13  
It should show charging voltage around 7.25 volts
the charging amps will decrease as the battery is charged. Your car or truck is setup similar with a 12 volt system. It will read around 14 to 14.5 volts across the battery terminals with the engine above a fast idle. Hal



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Red Mist

05-02-2008 17:25:06




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 Re: Another Charging Question (Super M) in reply to Joe Kimbriel, 05-02-2008 16:14:13  

Joe Kimbriel said: (quoted from post at 16:14:13 05/02/08) Maybe it don't need charging. Could be fully charged and VR is doing it' job. Why do you think it's not charging?

Joe


Good point, Joe. But, the voltage in the battery gradually drops while running from 6.30 V down to under 6. Then, the tractor either runs rough or dies and will not start until I recharge the battery. I.E., the battery discharges while running. mike

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CNKS

05-02-2008 17:59:10




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 Re: Another Charging Question (Super M) in reply to Red Mist, 05-02-2008 17:25:06  
I'm not going to get into all the electrical jargon, because electricity is magic to me, just like radio and TV, cell phones, computers, etc,etc. But if you have a good battery, good cables, and a good regulator, the thing works. I don't run my tractors for more than an hour or two at a time, mostly less than that, but generally I only get a couple of amps charge on the tractor ammeter, and sometimes barely to the right of the 0. They start and run. I have run my Super A for a couple of hours with the ammeter showing discharge to the point that it would not start with the battery if I shut it off. I could start it with the crank, though. It did not run rough when the battery was nearly "dead". Distributer, not mag. I think you have a bad battery, new or not. Of course, I am usually wrong.

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CNKS

05-02-2008 18:09:31




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 Re: Another Charging Question (Super M) in reply to CNKS, 05-02-2008 17:59:10  
Excuse the double post, my finger twitched. A Super M is not a Super A. My Super A always starts easier than my Super H even with it's puny automotive cables, compared to the SH's large ones. Regardless of all the threads about heavy cables, etc, you will be happier with a 12 volt system on that size tractor. To me an H is a borderline 6V, an M needs 12V unless you polish the connections every day. Only a suggestion, which may be challenged.

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CNKS

05-02-2008 17:59:09




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 Re: Another Charging Question (Super M) in reply to Red Mist, 05-02-2008 17:25:06  
I'm not going to get into all the electrical jargon, because electricity is magic to me, just like radio and TV, cell phones, computers, etc,etc. But if you have a good battery, good cables, and a good regulator, the thing works. I don't run my tractors for more than an hour or two at a time, mostly less than that, but generally I only get a couple of amps charge on the tractor ammeter, and sometimes barely to the right of the 0. They start and run. I have run my Super A for a couple of hours with the ammeter showing discharge to the point that it would not start with the battery if I shut it off. I could start it with the crank, though. It did not run rough when the battery was nearly "dead". Distributer, not mag. I think you have a bad battery, new or not. Of course, I am usually wrong.

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