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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
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656 Ring gear and starter

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Yellott Canby

02-10-2006 09:59:53




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Just wanted to seek a little more advice. Today I swaped ring gears on my Farmall 656. Put a brand new one on where in place of the old one which I had flipped last week. Tractor is doing the same thing. The starter runs on, (have to unhook the battery to stop), when the tractor won't start and works fine when it does start.
I am now wondering if it has the right starter in it to begin with. I have had it 21 years and the starter has never been right. Always ground several times before catching, hence the destruction of the first flywheel. Mine has a casing #1107744 which according to the T.H.E. catolog fits a 560 but not a 656. I intend to call IH toget the right OEM #, for the starter and drive. Wouldn't think there would be that much difference. Anyone have an F656 starter that works and could tell me the # on the case.
Thanks for the help, YC

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Aces

02-10-2006 20:32:32




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 Re: 656 Ring gear and starter in reply to Yellott Canby, 02-10-2006 09:59:53  
Old Dutch an after market bendix that could be gotten at auto parts stores was supose to spin the moter better. Make sure you don't have one of those. Different number of theet and that can not be done. Brother did that on his 656 gas until he sold me the whole story and had all kinds, after he put on the IH no problem.



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Old Dutch

02-10-2006 13:34:46




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 Re: 656 Ring gear and starter in reply to Yellott Canby, 02-10-2006 09:59:53  
Yellott: Ran into that on a number of the 656's years ago, they had a problem with the opening where the starter mounts. What you have to do is shim the starter in a way that you are pointing the nose or drive of the starter away from the flywheel ring gear. It is binding agin the flywheel and cannot release, unless it starts, then the flywheel drives the bendix and drive back home. So you will have to add some washers between the housing and starter to shift it in a direction away from the ring gear, doesn't take much, maybe one thin washer. Just experiment. Leave the cable loose on the Bat. Then you don't Have to go wild thinking what to do. I'm sure that;s your problem. Good luck Yellott. Old Dutch

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Yellott Canby

02-10-2006 18:36:03




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 Re: 656 Ring gear and starter in reply to Old Dutch, 02-10-2006 13:34:46  
Hello, Thanks for the idea of the washers. I tried shiming it out with two washers at each of the 3 bolt holes. Still did the same thing. Would you try to angle the starter slightly by shiming the furthest hole with two washers while shiming the closer two hole with one washer each? That would angle the starter slightly away from the ring gear. Do you think it would tear anything up?
Thanks YC

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Old Dutch

02-11-2006 02:01:19




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 Re: 656 Ring gear and starter in reply to Yellott Canby, 02-10-2006 18:36:03  
Yellott: Sorry my mistake, the washer would be on the outer most bolt between flange and transmission housing. Then you would be steering the nose away from the ring gear. The brain was getting fuzzy here. The inner bolts then pull the flange in to the opening kicking the starter nose over a bit. I would imagine it must be grinding when engaging also the way it is.



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Yellott Canby

02-11-2006 04:38:22




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 Re: 656 Ring gear and starter in reply to Old Dutch, 02-11-2006 02:01:19  
I am looking forward to trying that idea this morning. The thing has ground some ever since I bought it 21 years ago. Did the ones you worked on have any bevel to the starter side of the ring gear? The new gear I put on is a straight cut tooth as was the back side of the old OEM factory gear. Thanks for the help. YC



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Old Dutch

02-11-2006 01:43:54




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 Re: 656 Ring gear and starter in reply to Yellott Canby, 02-10-2006 18:36:03  
Yellott: If you shim the starter the washers have to be between the starter flange and housing, closest to the centerline of the tractor. This steers the nose away from the ring gear. By the way has it always been this way or has the starter been recently replaced? Maybe a bad or wrong application starter. Just recall this happened on a number of tractors we sold as a dealer when they were new. Some of them we had to split and relocate the faceplate on rear of the block with a template sent to the dealer to use. Many of them were on the Hydros. They had a problem with the flex plate breaking because the engine and transmission were not alined properly.
This was a problem on GM trucks and autos a number of years ago also as they had shims they used between the starter and bell housing to alleviate the scream of the starter when the engine started.

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Janicholson

02-10-2006 11:12:40




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 Re: 656 Ring gear and starter in reply to Yellott Canby, 02-10-2006 09:59:53  
Yellot,
I believe the wiring may be at fault here, please see the prior post for more from me. If it is spinning and turning the engine, it cannot be the gears, it must be electrical. Maybe not the starter or solenoid!
JimN



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Yellott Canby

02-10-2006 12:11:56




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 Re: 656 Ring gear and starter in reply to Janicholson, 02-10-2006 11:12:40  
Hello Jim,
Thanks for the note. The starter is doing what it is supposed to but it sticks in the engaged position causing the power to stay to it even when the button is released. I think that once a solenoid pushes the bendix gear forward it takes power from the big cable that comes straight from the battery. If the bendix gear becomes stuck forward, because of binding with the ring gear, then the contacts can't break from the big cable termanal , and the thing continues to try to start until either it does start and that releases the bendix, or the battery is unhooked.
If I unhook the coil to ensure that it won't start, then try to turn it over anyway I cannot stop it again unless I unhook the battery.

I talked to the starter guy after getting some OEM #s from IH and he said that it calls for a 20 mt starter, where the on on it now is a 10 mt. Meaning it calls for a stronger starter than what is on it now. I still am not sure how that will help it disengage. Has me stumped.
Thanks again for the help.YC

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Janicholson

02-10-2006 12:55:31




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 Re: 656 Ring gear and starter in reply to Yellott Canby, 02-10-2006 12:11:56  
Put a smaller bolt in the starter than original, or grind one side of the same size bolt and install it so that the starter can be "adjusted" just a bit upward. That should eliminate the bind!

Did you try the idea of removing all wires but the fat one?
JimN



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