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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
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allen in ne possible wf headache cure

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scotc

12-31-2005 20:40:16




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That axle center is the same as under our 756. The tie-rod-to-spindle arms look way toed out. would it help to pull them, lengthen the tie rods, and move the arms out closer to being parralel with the wheels? they are actually toed in on the 756. might get the stopblock alignment to where you can get more wheel cut.




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Allan in NE

01-01-2006 07:43:37




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 Re: allen in ne possible wf headache cure in reply to scotc, 12-31-2005 20:40:16  
Hi Scott,

Yep, that makes sense; I think the 806 and 756 would have had the same front end.

Must be the picture or something, 'cause they are not toed out at all. I found a little slack in the innter tie rods being loose to the steering arm. Tightened that up and the old girl is in pretty good shape except for the pivot pin, which needs to be replaced yet.

Got the welds cut off of the wishbone bolster and did some engineering on the mounting bolts.

I dunno, I think I'm just gonna live with the "wrong" front end. It is functional except for that turning radius and I really don't want to drop a grand on the correct one. :>(

Thanks,

Allan

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Janicholson

01-01-2006 13:09:22




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 Re: allen in ne possible wf headache cure in reply to Allan in NE, 01-01-2006 07:43:37  
Allen,
From remembering the earlier pics, I have one question and if yes then maybe a solution (or partial one). Are the spindle shafts turning against stops, and or do they have stops? If they aren't, or there are no stops, I would try this.
Make a plate 3"X4-1/2"X 3/4" thick. Drill two holes in the plate that match the spacing of the inner tie rods mounting studs from each other. Drill two tapered holes about 3" away that fit the taper of the studs. Place this plate on the under side of the steering arm and bolt in place with grade 8 bolts. This will provide substantially more travel to the tierods. Note distances and sizes are guesses on mu part. We did this on a cobbled together H with a truck axle to make it turn better.

The correct approximate geometry of an axle with the radius arms on the rear side of the spindle, has the radius arms pointing to the center of the rear axle when the tires are straight ahead. This causes the inner wheel to turn more than the outer, on a sharp corner.
I hope I helped some, JimN

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scotc

01-01-2006 21:04:51




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 Re: allen in ne possible wf headache cure in reply to Janicholson, 01-01-2006 13:09:22  
I think they are pointing in more than they need to be. If it is hitting the stops(which is how i understand it?) then lengthening tie rods and spinning the arms out on the spindle would probably be the cheapest most effective route. I'd say you have parts that will work together if set up properly. Also working in dry climates I personally would want a minimal amount of ackerman (inside wheelcut tighter than outer) built into the steering because even low speed turns could scuff the inside tire's track. But I can't say i've ever seen the inside tire on a high-ackerman setup track true and the outer scuff without using the brakes to turn so I have to question if it even helps turn the tractor, or if having both tires tracking closer to parallel would be better because they would both be planted instead of one scuffing already. But then again, it may help when using the brake to help turn. Anyhow, stop blocks in the way, I'd go my way, stop blocks not in the way, I'd try Janicholson's. Or throw both at it and maybe that inside rear wheel will spin backwards, who knows? May be a while before I'm back again, so don't be too harsh on my ideas, ok?

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Janicholson

01-02-2006 08:34:53




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 Re: Scotc (long) in reply to scotc, 01-01-2006 21:04:51  
Not being mean!!!
Making the radius arms on the spindle longer will reduce their rotation of the spindle, not increase it. I would shorten the radius arms on the spindle, and make sure stops were not affecting the eventual rotation. Ideally the following description will produce the best turning in a tractor (not necessarily a high speed auto/truck.

A (theoretical) line, extended from the rear axle, in the direction of the turn, will be intersected by a single point where the centerlines of the front wheel spindles cross each other, and the rear axle line. This point is the exact center of the turn being performed.

With regular steering linkages, this is only an approximation at best. Any time either tire is dragging, or pushing it is wasting energy that is hindering the actual turn.

In a Left turn (for instance) with a WFE having its track set to the same as the rear wheels, the left tire would need to be turned entirely perpendicular to the straight ahead position. This is usually not possible due to the tierod angle becomming excessively straight to the radius arm and/or going "overcenter". Thus they are often not going to spin like a trike.

Just an interesting topic.
JimN

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Allan in NE

01-02-2006 09:21:16




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 Re: Scotc (long) in reply to Janicholson, 01-02-2006 08:34:53  
Jim,

Not to put too much of an argument on this, but I think ya have your terminology confused. You're talking about the spindle steering arms, aren't you?

Radius arms don't move at all other than a liner sideways roll on their ball. They hold a static caster under the forward, center of the tractor.

The inside turning wheel will track "short" because of it's "lean". Since tractors are put into "tight" turns, they have an exaggerated positive camber built in.

It's what gives 'em that "bulldog" look.

Allan

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Janicholson

01-02-2006 14:59:31




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 Re: Scotc (long) in reply to Allan in NE, 01-02-2006 09:21:16  
Yes I am talking about the spindle arms.
Terminology is always grief in these discussions.
Radius rods, drag links, bell cranks, caster struts, wishbones, A arms, tie rods, king pins, and caster, camber, toein, king pin inclination, idler arm and a bunch of others. What a ZOO.
I'm comming from Automotive Classes I had 40 years ago, and being a mechanic with IH trucks, Ford, Nissan, Toyota, and Several independent shops.

We have it figured now.

The lean in of the spindle vertical shafts is equal to King pin inclination. this causes jacking of the whole front when turning (both sides). the effect is to cause self streightening of the system. (return to straight ahead)
The angle of the spindle arms from straight back, determine to a large degree how much each wheel turns at any specific angle of turn.

I love it. and I hope Your Hydro gets as much OOMPH forward as in reverse, for the price of a fitting or gasket.
JimN

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