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Crawlers, Dozers, Loaders & Backhoes Discussion Forum

Undercarriage is a real pain!

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135 Fan

04-12-2008 20:28:10




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I rented a 3/4 in. drive electric impact wrench today so I could hopefully remove my roller bolts. How come roller bolts aren't a bigger diameter? The first bolt broke off, so I heated the second bolt. It broke off. I heated the third bolt and put some ice on it to shrink it a bit. It broke as well. This was on the back roller and it looks like the bolts may have been loose for a while. I left the last bolt. Went to another roller. Broke another bolt. Tried next 2 rollers on the outside bolts. They came out not too bad. The best way I know to remove broken bolts is to weld something to the broke part and they usually spin out real easy. The problem is doing it overhead with the track frames still on. So now I'm taking the track frames off. I took the idlers off and the piston for the track adjustor looks nice and chrome with some yellow paint on it. Didn't see any rust at all. That should be a good sign but I need to take the yokes that the idler blocks bolt to off in order to drop the track frames. The adjusters are loose and pushed back. Do I just have to take the 4 bolts out of the end cap and slide the piston assembly out? I removed with great difficulty the 10 large bolts holding the track frames on. I thought the track frames would be loose and flop around a bit. Once I take the piston out, should the track frames just fall to the ground? I'm wondering if there just a little rusted or something and stuck to the mounting arms. I expected them to only be held up by rod on the end of the piston with the idler yoke on the end. There is a bunch of dirt in there. Are there some hidden bolts holding it on as well? It's Cat 931B/D3. If the roller bolts would have been bigger like the track frame bolts, I could have got them out without breaking them. I was also thinking of dumping about a gallon of diesel into the track frames from the top bolt holes. It might soak the roller bolts so they come out easier. Sound like a good idea? What a pain in the ...! I'm doing it in the field. I have a little propane/Mapp torch for heat. I wish I still had my welding truck with cutting torch to use for heat. Any good ideas and advice is greatly appreciated. Thanks. Dave

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PD Mechanical

04-13-2008 06:58:14




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 Re: Undercarriage is a real pain! in reply to 135 Fan, 04-12-2008 20:28:10  
I agree with CHinNY about removing track frames to change rollers. If you were only changing one or two you could do it upside down, but when doing all, remove the frames. I also agree with Aj to a degree. Heat the track frame not the bolt. Doesn't hurt to heat the bolt but concentrate on the frame. Heat red hot. Quench with water. I know, I know. Most will disagree with the water. Trust me I've been doing it for 20 years and learned from an old timer who had done it for 50+ years before me. Never had a problem. And never had a bolt that I couldn't get out even if it were already broken off. After heating and quenching work the bolt by hand with plenty of penetrating oil. We use PB. You may have to heat and quench more than once. DO NOT try to remove the bolt hot. This is a good way to remove the threads as well. Remember the metal is softened when hot. Use good grade 8 bolts when re-assembling, and by all means USE never sieze. If good bolts are used and tightened properly they will not come loose. We always torque by hand with a 3/4 drive ratchet. No specific torque other than tight by feel. Another thing learned from old timers and never had one come loose yet. If you're in doubt, check them after running for a while. Broken bolts can be difficult. We usually weld a nut to them then go through the heating and queching ritual. If they are broke off below the surface then you may have to "build up" the bolt to get a nut welded to it. At times we have welded short pc's of pipe to the bolts then a nut on top of the pipe. This is usually only able to be done with larger bolts. We have also gouged them out wit a torch. You must be very good with the torch though or you can imagine what happens. If you have doubts about being able to get the broken ones out by welding nuts on them, drill them as large as you can without getting into the threads prior to heating. Once heated and queched they will be hard and very difficult to drill without destroying bits. The biggest thing is patience. Don't be in a hurry and you'll have sucess. Good luck and if you have any questions feel free to contact me directly. Steve.

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Billy NY

04-13-2008 06:19:07




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 Re: Undercarriage is a real pain! in reply to 135 Fan, 04-12-2008 20:28:10  
What AJ said, it really sounds like you are not getting enough heat to the base metal. The threads are most likely bonded together, also realize that a track frame probably ranks up high on the list of difficulty to disassemble, just by the location of those bolts, they seize up but good.

Not familiar with that track frame, but assume from what you said the bottom rollers are worn out, so no worry about the innards and heat. I can't comment about the Mapp Gas you are using, but it sounds like you are just not getting enough heat to break the bond. The correct heat and the impact from a good whack from a hammer should break the bond, don't get me wrong, sometimes it's a project, but from similar things I've taken apart, heat, then work the bolt, little impact action, try to get that bolt to slightly turn either way, impact in either direction if possible, not sure if you can set that gun low enough just to vibrate the head a little in eqach direction, somehow you have to weaken and break that bond. The impact from a hammer may have to suffice, that will help weaken the bond.

Some of those guys on ACMOC / ACME might be able to further advise you on technique, seen a lot of track frames apart from 60+ year old tractors, same category of difficulty level if not worse. I think some more heat to the surrounding metal is one big part of this. Whenever I don't use enough heat bolts seem to break a lot easier. I am not sure of any industrial penetrant that will actually wick in far enough, I have used a product by Gasoila called FREE-ALL, and out of everything I have tried, this one seems to have performed better, none of these will do miracles, its all about how far it wicks in the way I see it. Being fine thread and bonded by rust, you would have to immerse the track frame to really get anything to wick in. If you can get the base metal dull orange at least, don't quote me, that ought to be in the ballpark on the heat.

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Daniel Henebry

04-13-2008 03:38:08




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 Re: Undercarriage is a real pain! in reply to 135 Fan, 04-12-2008 20:28:10  
I have a 1957 Allis Chalmers HD11 and the best investment I made was in a Rosebud for my torch (also have flashback arrestors on your torch hoses). It is somewhat disturbing to me how hot I've had to heat some things to get them apart. It is best to have two people because someone needs to keep heating while you are turning. I've taken the mechanical track adjusters completely apart apart and put antisieze on them and hopefully I can keep them adjusted with much less effort. I suggest putting antisieze on everything. It will sure help the next time you may need to remove itas most dozers are not kept in the shed.

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AJ.

04-13-2008 03:02:00




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 Re: Undercarriage is a real pain! in reply to 135 Fan, 04-12-2008 20:28:10  
Do not heat the bolts,heat the area that they screw into,hit down on the head with a sledge and try to undo them by hand,an impact wrench should not be used,keep the area hot and move the bolt to and fro and then try to screw it out,if you think the bolt is going to break you are better to take the head from it and get the roller out of the way,that way at least you have something sticking up that you can grip with a pipe wrench or weld a nut on,then heat the frame around the bolt,as you said its a pain but thats what happens when antisize is not used on the threads or the bolts are too long and stick up inside and rust.
AJ

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CHinNY

04-13-2008 06:07:55




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 Re: Undercarriage is a real pain! in reply to AJ., 04-13-2008 03:02:00  
I disagree i take hundreds of rollers off every year . First i always take the truck off and work on it turned over next i wack the head of each bolt then i heat each one red hot and just let them cool. I use a 1/2 I/R 235 impact and i break very few bolts. You should NEVER use antisize on these bolts as they could loosen. I was trained to use new hardware retap each hole and use with no oils or antisezes and tourqe to spec.

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AJ.

04-18-2008 14:09:37




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 Re: Undercarriage is a real pain! in reply to CHinNY, 04-13-2008 06:07:55  
Ya, it was probably someone like you that put those rollers on in the first place,probably even used Loctite,the impact wrench is a fast way to shear off the bolts,but then you can spend extra time getting them out,an impact wrench is for undoing highly torqued bolts and nuts not siezed ones,big difference.we had our own track shop since 1953 and have more to do with machinery than you ever will,how dare you try to demean me or my company.
AJ

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135 Fan

04-18-2008 16:05:24




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 Re: Undercarriage is a real pain! in reply to AJ., 04-18-2008 14:09:37  
I don't think he was trying to demean you or your company. I am a welder by trade and do know a few things. I did not have access to an oxy/fuel torch for heating. Generally heating the female part that the bolt goes into expands that area around the bolt. Heating the bolt will expand it and after it cools, the shrinkage can also make it come out easier. Some bolts are just going to break no matter what. Welding a nut or piece of flat bar with a hole in it to a broken stud, usually makes them spin out easily. The intense heat from welding and then the shrinkage from cooling, does wonders. Heating the bolt red hot could have similar results. Had I had a welder and an oxy/fuel torch, I could have got all the bolts out. All I had was a torch like a plumbers torch. No way to get enough heat to the area the bolt threads into with the rollers still on. Either method will work. I don't think you need to take such offence just because someone else uses a different procedure than you. Out of 40 bolts that have been in for over 20 years, I got 75% of them out. On the second track frame, only 3 bolts broke after I whacked them with the track frame off. The broken bolts were very rusted. I never really expected all of them to just turn right out. After all, Murphy and his law are always present when fixing something. Dave

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135 Fan

04-13-2008 08:42:49




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 Re: Undercarriage is a real pain! in reply to CHinNY, 04-13-2008 06:07:55  
I got the big super tight 1 1/8 in. head track frame bolts loose by heating them and then putting ice on them. I don't have an O/A torch to use. I wish I did. The track frames are boxed so trying to get heat to the frame where all the bolts go into, is next to impossible. Same thing for for any penetrating fluid. The roller bolts aren't very big and it's hard to tell how much torque you can put on them before they break. If I get the track frames off, it will be a lot easier to get the bolts out and the rollers on. I guess I just take the end cap off the adjuster to take it apart? If I had the machine in a fully equipped shop, I'd have them off already. I'm not in a shop though, I'm out in the field. Big difference. Thanks for all you guy's help. I'll wrestle with it some more today. If you hear some cursing in the distance, it's just me. Dave

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RENE'S

04-13-2008 00:05:17




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 Re: Undercarriage is a real pain! in reply to 135 Fan, 04-12-2008 20:28:10  
I TELL MY BOYS ALLWAYS GO IN LOADED FOR BEAR AND YOU WILL WIN.GO IN LOOKING FOR SOMETING EASY AND IT WILL TEACH YOU A LESION.ALWAYS GO IN WITH ONE PERSON GOING TO WIN. AND YOU WILL. RENE'



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135 Fan

04-12-2008 20:31:36




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 Re: Don't know why I don't have a seperate post? in reply to 135 Fan, 04-12-2008 20:28:10  
My post came right above another post. Don't know why? Dave



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