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JD 410 hard to start

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ChrisB

09-28-2007 08:51:55




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I have a '79 JD 410 diesel that will not start without starter fluid (dope addict I think they call it). Just a touch of starter fluid and she will fire right up. After she is warm she will fire back up after sitting for no more than a minute or two without fluid. Any longer and it seems like she might go but sounds like almost the timing is off as she tries to fire up. A touch of starter fluid and she comes right up. Even cold as ice, she will fire right up with a little fluid.

At first I thought it might be compression. She does smoke a little when cold and even less when warm. She has plenty of power and is hard to get her to stall. In the 5 years I have had her, she has not burnt any noticeable oil. The smoke that I do see is mostly white to gray.

My first (and cheapest) thought was to have the injectors replaced, cleaned, rebuilt, but I figure I would come in here and see what the experts think.

Thanks in advance,

Chris

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ChrisB

12-08-2007 12:53:03




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 Re: JD 410 hard to start in reply to ChrisB, 09-28-2007 08:51:55  
Jde et. all,

Well thanks for the help. Was out with a slight knee injury. In the meantime the 2 year old JD reman starter finally bit the dust ($389.00 down the tube), and the last time I will ever buy a JD reman.
Put in a brand new starter for $140 (not from JD obviously) and figured I would redo the cables and put in a new battery seeing how the battery in there belongs to the boats trolling motor.
In the mean time I replaced the fuel filter on the machine, I had an inclining that the filter the JD dealer was providing was not the correct one. Low and behold what a difference.
Motor does spin faster on startups and I am 100% sure this is thanks to replacing that piece of @$@#$ JD reman starter.
Now at this point I am able to restart the motor when warm without any ether. This in itself will save me fuel costs by not leaving the machine running when not in use (i.e. loading rocks by hand).
After a 4 hour cool-down I will need just the smallest amount of ether to get her going. Even started fine at 9 degrees the other day.
Still smokes a lot when cold (fuel) and I sure would like to be able to start her without any ether at all..... ..or should I just leave well enough alone?

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scooter01922

09-29-2007 17:58:42




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 Re: JD 410 hard to start in reply to ChrisB, 09-28-2007 08:51:55  
I"ve heard that using a shot of wd40 instead of ether is better for the engine. More flammable than diesel but less than ether. But i wouldn"t really know as i have no starting issues :-)



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jdemaris

09-28-2007 13:55:45




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 Re: JD 410 hard to start in reply to ChrisB, 09-28-2007 08:51:55  
Putting it at full-throttle on your 410 probably won't change a thing. That does work on certain injection pumps - but not your Stanadyne-Roosamaster C, DB, or JDB pump.

I worked on Deere third-generation diesels since they came out new - and we had many cold-starting issues. I can't possibly address them all here.
But, here a little info.

Many of those engines - like you have in your 410, had the problem you describe since the day they were new. I worked along side Deere engineers - in our shop trying to narrow down the problem. Better put, they worked along side us grease-monkeys. These were mostly college guys from Deere that rarely got their hands dirty. In one case - we had two, brand new 350Cs - one started great down to 30 degrees F (with no heater or ether) and other wouldn't start unless it was 60 degrees F out. We took them both apart and swapped parts - including pistons, sleeves, rods, injection pump, cylinder head, camshaft, etc. No matter what parts we swapped - the bad starting tractor still started bad, and the good one still started good. This was late 70s, early 80s. Deere finally decided they had a production problem and some blocks were machined too far above the crankshaft. Deere came up with many band-aid fixes e.g. pistons with higher top ring grooves, special head gaskets, etc. We did the same parts swap with two new 2940 ag tractors with the same results.

With your tractor, it would be a big help to know if it EVER started better. A Deere engine can develop the symptoms your's has, later in life - by a valve job where too much grinding is done and the valve heads now sit too deep in the head. It won't affect the way it runs once warmed up, just cold starting. Fuel delivery - if the cranking fuel delivery is set too low, the tractor will be awful to start when cold, but can still run just fine. Often, when this is the case - it will hardly make any smoke when you work it hard. It also will often start easily cold with a small shot of ether. A good test is - just spend 10 minutes on it and turn up the fuel a 1/8 turn, and see if it starts better. Cranking speed - 410 can easily get bogged down by the hydraulic system and crank too slow for good starting when cold. The fuel injection pump only turns 1/2 engine speed as it is, so - if the engine cranks slow, and the pump is used, you can get low fuel delivery on top of compression-ignition problems. If in doubt, install a $10 manual destroker valve - it takes five minutes to put in. Damaged top rings - very common in non-turbo 410s. They tend to shatter with ether use and result in very hard starting. But, if this is the case, the machine would skip and smoke until you got it good and hot - but otherwise run well.

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ChrisB

09-28-2007 14:35:00




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 Re: JD 410 hard to start in reply to jdemaris, 09-28-2007 13:55:45  
jdemaris,

Thanks for the informative post. It really helps.

I just got in from trying Jim's full throttle suggestion . No luck :(

One thing I did notice is that while cranking there is no smoke at the exhaust.
Can I assume correctly that it is not getting fuel while cranking? You mention 'cranking fuel delivery' which I am not aware of. I will get the manual out and see what I could find. Not a diesal mechaninc here and know nothing of the injector pump. If there is a cranking fuel could there be a running fuel adjustment and that might be the smoke I am seeing?
As far as destroker, I have the automatic one and it is working correctly.

Just to clarify on the cold starting; it does not matter if it is 90 degrees out, it will still need a shoot.
As far as how long, I have only had it for four years. It did come with a can of ether when I purchased it along with a had written sticker that mentioned using it to save the starter.
Now off to the manual.
Thanks a mil$$$$$$$$$$$

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jdemaris

09-30-2007 06:43:20




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 Re: JD 410 hard to start in reply to ChrisB, 09-28-2007 14:35:00  
The Deere manual isnt' going to tell you anything about the injection pump. There is NO adjustment that affects just cranking-fuel delivery. When you turn up the general-fuel delivery - it will raise both the amount pumped at engine cranking as well as max. delivery when you work it hard. Remember that the fuel injection pump is just a hydraulic pump with some controls added. It is not a gear pump though - it is two pumps coupled together - a low pressure rotary vane pump hooked to a high-pressure dual plunger pump. Like any pump that works off of rotary motion, the faster it rotates, the more it can pump. So, if it gets a little worn - it has a hard time pumping the fuel needed for starting when it's turning so slow. That pump only turns half the engine RPM, so if your engine cranks at 500 RPM, the pump is only cranking at 250 RPM. Sometimes, just turning the general fuel delivery up makes a big difference in starting. Only takes ten minutes to do it. That all being said - the top rings break pretty easy in that engine is a non-turbo. If the top rings are broken, it may still run fine when hot - but will not start below 70-80 degrees F without ether. I certainly cannot tell from here. But, generally - if it's only a fuel problem - and you start it with ether in warm weather - it will fire right up and run fine. If it's a broken top-ring problem, it will also fire right up - but skip and smoke until you get it hot.

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jim boettcher

09-28-2007 09:16:56




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 Re: JD 410 hard to start in reply to ChrisB, 09-28-2007 08:51:55  
I give it full throttle when first cranking. When it starts to fire I back off. If it doesn't want to fire at full throttle I just start backing off while still cranking. That's on a John Deere Diesel. On my Fordson tractor I had the same problem as you for years until I read my book and it talked about pressing the button on the fuel injector pump for fast, easy start.
DA! I have thrown away my starter fluid. All the button does is give it a full dose of diesel until it fires and then the button pop's out on it's own. By giving your's full throttle when first cranking your doing the same thing. Also,
don't forget to keep your air filters clean as clean can be. Mine are clean-able by blowing out with compressed air. They will give you problems big time when trying to start if dirty. I ALSO USE FUEL ADDATIVE AT ALL TIMES. Let me know if this helps. Hope so.

Myassitis from Mo.

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ChrisB

09-28-2007 09:35:27




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 Re: JD 410 hard to start in reply to jim boettcher, 09-28-2007 09:16:56  
Jim,

Good thinking on the full throttle, I will definitely give it a try. Filters are new with very few hours on it so I am safe there.

Since you are having good luck, what kind of additive are you using? I forget what I am adding now as I seem to switch between brands and cannot settle on one.
Thanks again,

Chris



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