Crawler Loader? Or wheel loader?

"I own 60+ acres of wooded land, and I need to start thinning it out, and clearing the way for construction.

I need to dig a 2-3 acre pond, knock over small trees, and just move a whole bunch of dirt as the land is somewhat low, and I"ll be scraping a lot of topsoil from out back and moving it up front, etc.

I was advised that a JD 450 Crawler Loader would be my best choice. I was initially looking at getting a dozer with a 6 way blade, but I"m starting to think that a crawler loader is a pretty good idea.

I know nothing about crawlers whatsoever. So I will need opinions on what to look for when looking at buying one of these.

I guess my thinking as of now, is a crawler loader with a backhoe would be my dream machine.

I can budget about $10,000 for this machine, whatever it turns out to be..."

I"ve been strongly advised against purchasing a dozer.

I will do the work myself, I will not hire the work out...

Thanks in advance for any thoughts you may have...

Anyway, long story short, of all the machines I researched, the tracked loader with a 4-1 bucket seemed to be the best overall choice for the wide variety of things I needed to do (especially considering I wanted to stay below ~$10k like you do). There are several heavy duty experts here that led me to that conclusion, including GeorgeMD, Deas Plant (from Australia), BobOnt, jdemaris and a whole bunch of others. I've found that their advice was dead on, I don’t regret getting the loader. You'd be wise to listen to what they have to say as you learn more, that is if you really decide to go the route of buying your own machine (it’s not for everyone though).

Why was the tracked loader best? The tracked loader can carry dirt, it can doze (with a 4-1 bucket), it can grade, it can dig pits, it can push over trees, dig up stumps, carry stumps, lift downed trees up and move them around, tow big logs, since it has tracks it gets around much better than wheeled machines (especially in mud or softer soils), it can be used as hoist or forklift, it can pull concrete and dump trucks out of the mud, it can be used to manage burn piles effectively...I even use it to block/restrain downed, tangled up "spring loaded" trees so I can safely cut them with a chainsaw (without them taking my head off). All in all, the tracked loader is an incredibly versatile machine. Other more specialized machines are better at their respective tasks; a dozer will doze and grade better than a loader, a backhoe will dig better pits and more surgically remove stumps than a loader, and a wheeled loader wont tear the ground up as much as a tracked loader. But the tracked loader will still do all of these tasks and many other things that the other more specialized machines can’t do. The loader is a compromise, but overall it's the best compromise from what I've seen and for the purposes of lot clearing/logging/construction within a reasonable budget. I would strongly recommend one based on my quite "experience filled" and enlightening last year of heavy toil with one.

As far as what size machine, if you have 60 acres and have quite a bit of soil transport work and perhaps a long driveway and substantial clearing to do, then I would get the biggest machine you can afford. I would try and get a bigger machine than the 450 if it were me. Don't get me wrong, the 450 is a nice sized machine (just a bit smaller than my loader), and it could probably do what you want, but when it comes to old machines oversizing is a good idea in my opinion. I say this for a couple of reasons. The larger machine will do more work, do it faster and not be "taxed" nearly as much as a smaller machine. When it comes to these old machines, you don't want to push them too hard, it pays (or saves) to take it easy on them and only work them at a reasonable rate/intensity. Having a bigger machine makes this possible, and still allows you to get the work done in a reasonable timeframe. Another curious factor, is that the larger machines in many cases go for no more money than the smaller machines (sometimes even less). Amateurs are put off by big machines because they are intimidated by their size (like I was before I bought my 11 ton machine), and feel more comfortable with a more "people sized" machine. This tends to bid up the prices of 350 and 450 sized machines. Also, larger machines are more troublesome and expensive to transport, but as long as you plan on keeping it on your property primarily (as I do), then its not really an issue. Professionals don't buy old crawlers because they need something that is newer, more reliable and easier to get parts for. This is mostly why larger old crawlers are pretty comparable in price to similar vintage/condition 350 and 450 sized machines.

So that's what I would do, get the biggest tracked loader with a 4-1 bucket you can afford. A 4-1 bucket is a “clamshell” bucket that opens up and allows it to be used like a dozer or as a grabbing device (for picking up stumps, trees etc). And make sure it is a solid machine with a good undercarriage. If you plan on working in the woods extensively, I would really recommend a rollbar/cage (ROPS), although I've done ok with an open cab machine.

As far as what brand, that’s a divisive issue, everyone has their favorite brand. I went with an International Harvester because they are plentiful, cheap and as long as they are well cared for and maintained, they are good machines (although IH is out of business, so parts can be an issue). I would recommend an IH loader of least my size (150), and preferably a 175 or even a 250 (which is a really good sized loader). JD and Cat obviously make fine machines, but command more money. You're going to have a really tough time finding a JD any bigger than a 450 for under $10k in decent shape. In fact you'll probably have a bit of trouble finding a decent 450 for under $10k. Not impossible, but they are popular machines. You can find some killer deals on Allis Chalmers (AC) machines, but parts for them is really an issue from what I've heard. But they did make some really nice machines, so something to consider, you can definitely get hooked up with a nice big AC for well under $10K. Case is another top brand, probably one of the best overall choices you could make, if not the best choice (in my opinion). I’d try and get an 850 sized machine. Lastly, what brand you end up choosing may be largely dictated with what kind of machines are widely available in your area. There are places where Case dominates, and then other places where everyone runs a Deere.

Anyway, that’s enough for now. Let us know if we can help you more as you learn and define more what you want to do.

Good luck.

My mind is not totally made up yet, but I'm starting to think a loader/backhoe might make more sense long term for me.

I have no problems working on machines, I've worked as a mechanic throughout college, and now I'm a mechanical engineer.

I'm not afraid of the work to fix a crawler, just of the cost to do so, and the equipment & tools required to repair one... I imagine you need a pretty nice shope to be able to effectively repair a 10 TON crawler. I have no barns on this land, just trees, etc... There would be no place to work on it...

I'm glad your situation worked out well, and that your crawler loader never died on you...

I still want a crawler in the worst way, but I'm trying to stay level headed and make the best choice...

Realistically, I have about 4-6 months to decide...

However, I do appreciate our experienced opinion...

If you have 60 acres, that's a lot of land. I'm not sure just how much fill you want to cut and move (cubic yardwise) and how far you want to move it, but on 60 acres there are some huge scenarious possible that could occupy two D9's (i.e. mega dozer) and 2 pans for weeks full time. I'm assuming you don't want to move much more than 500 yards or so, no more than 200-400 feet? If you have much more than this to contend with, then I'd rethink the whole concept of doing the work yourself (at least within a $10k machine budget).

Another possibility is getting a really big dozer and maybe an old dump truck. I've seen running, fully functional old Cat D7 (cable blade lift) and larger dozers from the 50's sell for under $5k. If you go to the redpower site (a site dedicated to IH crawlers) there are several there with big old IH dozers from the 40's and 50's. They run the hell out of them with great success. And fix them all the time; parts and maintenance procedures are all manageable (as King of Obsolete or Captain Crunch can tell ya). Check out these websites:

Link

Link

These big old machines can be had quite cheap, in many cases in good running condition for under $5k. They are big and powerful and can move some dirt if put to it. A big dozer can dig a pond too. They can also take care of any kind of trees you might have. As far as moving earth substantial distances, a truck would be helpful (as long as you have some terra firma that will support a rubber tired vehicle). When I get a chance I'll scan and show you some pics of how dozers used to be used to move fill, and to even load trucks with. Before loaders came into vogue in the mid-late 50's, dozers used to be used for nearly everything.

And I agree with you that a tractor loader backhoe (TLB) is more useful and versatile...but only AFTER the big and serious work is completed. These machines are generally unsuitable for traversing soft or wet ground (as David mentioned). Plus if your ground is hilly, rollover is much more likely with wheeled loaders/backhoes than with tracked machines. An old TLB cannot be expected to dig up a large volume of dirt (hundreds of yards), especially hard dirt, and move it hundreds of feet without taking a lot of time and putting s serious strain on the machine. There is no way a TLB would have completed the job I needed to get done this past year, I would have broken it long before I even got close to finishing what I've done so far.

Anyway, food for thought. I'll try and post some pics later.

Any tracked machine is fairly useless if your objective is to move material more than 100 feet at a time. It is also difficult to use the machine on two different parts of the property at once. (This comes up more often than you might think). Tracked machines just plain move too slowly for many of the little jobs that come up on a large property.

A big wheel loader is one way to move a lot of dirt quickly. But the ground had better be firm enough to drive on with wheels, yet relatively easy to dig. It doesn't do anything else particularly well.

One option to consider is with a tractor-loader-backhoe with a 4:1 bucket. Buy an old dump truck to move the dirt across the property. That's what have, and the versatility of the TLB has continued to surprise and please me over the course of the last few years. The 4:1 bucket means you can clamshell logs, tree stumps, tee posts, whatever and pick them up without jumping out of the cab.

I just have to keep the machine out of the wet and sloppy stuff.

I have 10 acres (hills) and a JD 555G
(crawler loader - 4 way bucket)

If I had your property / project I would
look for a big machine.

I'm a rookie. Heres what I learned

ROPS are good, trees/branches fall where
they want in tight quaters. I have some nice dents in my roof

Roots are endless, getting clean topsoil is
not easy (CALIF - sierra nevada mnts)