Re: Electric Company and Solar

Posted by Bob in SD on May 13, 2018 at 09:05:26 from (216.106.198.108):

In Reply to: Re: Electric Company and Solar posted by Andy Martin on May 12, 2018 at 10:01:08:

It is a complicated subject Australia is doing well with solar assist from housing. Not a perfect solution, but it is working.

We need a mix. We're not ready for 100% residential solar, but a little bit will help us learn what we need to know. PV on every house will cause more trouble than it's worth. Solar is very inefficient and producing the PV arrays pollute more than burning coal. Payback times are on the order of the life of the panels, so it doesn't (yet) make economic sense, even with government subsidies in most locations.

California is blessed with lots of sunshine and it happens that sunshine and A/C seem to happen at the same time. That works well together.

But not at the same place. Too much residential solar leads to the curtailment mentioned above. Folks throttle back their AC and head into work. Lot's of power could potentially be produced during the heat of the day, but it's needed in at work (to run those ACs, machinery, computers, etc), not out at the house. Our current grid is designed for one-way energy flow from the generators to the homes. It's not set up for large power flow the other way, and too much generation in the residential areas causes voltage spikes and damages equipment (both the inverters and the household stuff like expensive TVs and such). Hence the need to curtail and waste all of that potential power. We're working on solutions, but insisting on 100% solar at residences at this time is counter-productive. Stupid "feel good" measures like the "coal fired" Prius the guys voting on this trash are driving.

In any event the power company has to have spinning reserve to accommodate spikes in power consumption and loss of outside power (clouds) so they don't save anything on generation but they do save on fuel, some.

This is just plain wrong. Without the PV we can burn cheap coal and nuclear for the base. When the clouds come over we've got to fire up short-term generators (natural gas if you're lucky, diesel in certain regions of the country at certain times of the year). This costs much more (in dollars) than just having the coal or nuclear base would have cost. The jury is still out on the pollution when all factors are considered (coal vs. diesel, coal comes in on a train vs. diesel being trucked in, etc) but it's a net loss if the pollution and resources to build and install the PV is considered.

...There are lots of pumped storage schemes from pumping water up a hill to a reservoir to compressing air into underground caverns during times of excess power. Then the storage can be used to supplement power during peak periods or, in the case of solar, at night.

Yep. Storage is key to using all of these non-dispatchable resources. If we can solve that residential solar for those on the grid will start to make economic sense (in some cases, but never for everybody).

There is an advantage to having power come from all over as that diminishes the load on trunk lines. With modern inverters the solar panel can cheaply provide exactly the right voltage and frequency to satisfy the grid.

There are advantages and disadvantages, as discussed above. Having to curtail so as to not overload the grid when load drops during peak solar times adversely effects payback times and make solar even less economically viable. If we were designing from scratch with a new grid and business/residential mixed just right we could take much more advantage. Given the current grid and the existing locations of residential vs. business we have a lot of work to do to gain the theoretical benefits.

And you could not pay me enough to live in the land of the fruits and nuts.

This I agree with 100%!

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