Re: What is it worth IH 656

Posted by The tractor vet on December 15, 2015 at 21:58:47 from (104.179.81.68):

In Reply to: Re: What is it worth IH 656 posted by jethrow4 on December 15, 2015 at 07:34:05:

Well on the valve issue Comes from doing a lot of valve jobs on the gas tractors , Not only me but the three I H dealers around me . I was standing next to one of my friends 706 one evening while he and i were grinding hog feed for our massive hog heard (all of 12 pigs) . We were running corn thru the small screen on a New Holland 355 grinder mixer and the 706 was working hard and she pulled down a bit and all of a sudden she sputtered and i looked over just as a cherry red piece went out the pipe and she was now missing bad. The next day i pulled the head and one exhasut valve had a perfect Vee torched in it . Ok guess it was time . So off to the machine shop , we put one new valve in it and ground the rest , guides seamed fine so just a valve job was done. along with a truing cut on the head of .007 Put head back on and all is well TILL the next grinding and she ate a valve So this time we do all new guide seats and valves springs keepers and retainers. And put it back to work. Two days later a 460 Gasser comes in with burnt exhaust valve . Then a 656 comes in for the same thing . well the owner of the 460 tells me that OH yea anymore i have to have the valves done about every four or five years , But back when it was new and it was our big tractor couple times a year. Well i did not have and answer to the problem , But it got me thinking of back in the days of being a Ford Tech and i did a lot of Ford Big truck work of how often i was doing valve jobs on the BIG ford truck engines . One customer had a fleet of BIG Ford tandem dumps And we had one of Pauley's in the shop almost everyday for something and one a week for a valve job . He had 391's 477's and 534's . These engines ran a sodem filled valve , that was suppose to be the best you could get . NOT . same thing a perfect VEE torched in the valve . You have never lived till ya have to pull a head off a 534 in a N series by your self . Pauley was in one day seeing how i was coming along with one of his 950N as i was about done with it and we got talking about this . I asked him WHAT are you running for gas and Oil Well he told me that he ran Sohio Boron you know the stuff with Valve cleaner in it . Boron was Sohio's premium . Well you had to run PREMIUM in the old big gas truck engines and i asked what oil he was running at the time and it was also Sohio oil . Even the cars that were having valve problems when asked what fuel and oil they used BACK then all sais Sohio with valve cleaner. I told Pauley to humor me and try switching gas and oil on some of the trucks and see if it made a difference . Well he started using gas for the couple small fuel stops scattered around this area and fueled the rest at his place out of his tank. Sorta shot myself in the foot on that one as i was only seeing the ones that he was fueling at home . Well as we fixed one that one started fueling away from home till we had the rest fixed and once they were all off a diet of Sohio the valve problems stopped . They stilll got drug in with clutches out or a drive shaft twisted in to or a rear end out or a rod hanging out the side of the block but no more valve jobs . One day at a sale out in In. i was talking to a friend by the name of Clyde Burkshire , Clyde was and OLD I H dealer that closed up on the Tenneco take over and i said something to Clyde about the valve problems we were having and the guy with Clyde was also and old I H dealer from Marrion In. He and his brothers ran the place and he ran the service dept . They did all work in House as they had a complet machine shop Bill told me that yes I H did have a problem with exhaust valves and they worked on it for several years before coming up with a FIX NOT a Cure so to speak but a fix. Ash deposits from on the exhaust valves and cause them to torch under working loads Remember i said WORKING loads . There solution to this was a LOW ASH OIL. Well Eugen and i WERE NOT RUNNING LOW ASH OIL John Boy or hi dad who bought the 460 new in 1959 bought the cheapest oil they could Larry 's 656 ran Cheap just like you a 10-30 that he put in everything Same as the one girl dairy farmer did with her 706 gasser . All she did was haul the daily deposit of her heard twice a day with a tandem New holland Spreader that made the 706 work in soft fields. Bill told me to switch oil and my valve problem would go away Ok so we switched , yep valve problems went away . Npow as to piston problems if you have a Org. owners manual under the heading of FUEL REQUIREMENTS It planly states for a 460 gasser that a octane of 89 R+M=2 is the required fuel . Now lets more up a couple years when the 706-806 gassers were the norm In the owners manual it states NOW on these tractors a fuel grade of min. octane OF 93 R=M=2 . Back when these tractors were built 93 was the cheapest grade out there . Your ma and Pa grocery getter ran on 95 octane and Johnny lets go fast 4 BBl. 4 speed with posi rear end required 105 or better . BUT then along comes the EPA and by 1972 MFG. were already cutting compression tweaking back cam timing and ing. timing and by 1975 leaded gas was almost gone and by 1978 if you had a big engine with high compression and a heads up cam with lots of advance ing timing you were in trouble Big gas tractors were gone and the problems were just starting with them . I ran gas tractors because i could by one cheap , it would start in any weather well down below where i wanted to be outside and they got the job done . Back then you could still get 95 octane and that is what i ran as reg gas now had dropped from 95 down to 90 then 89 and now at the 87 . 87 burns really hot and fast 93 burns cooler and slower the 87 will plum melt the new pistons that you get into days overhaul pkg. The ORg. pistons that I H used when new were a FORGED piston and it to transfer heat down thru the piston to the skirts to the cylinder wall and into the water jacket . NOW todays pistons are a cast piston and can not dissipate as fast now combine that with the hotter burning 87 and not being able to get rid of that extra heat you have a melt down or i should say a excessive swelling of the piston above the top ring groove . Along with melting of the piston edge . Has to do with Flame front timing . But any way we have had problems . Not only on our tractors but other peoples tractors some that have come to me to be fixed by new customers first timers . And i ge Well why did this happen what causes this. When this first happened as soon as i pulled the head i knew what i was looking at i knew it was fuel related . Well My buddy doubted me and he asked someone else they came and looked at it and agreed 100% that i was correct . My buddy had ordered gas and spesified 93 octane what he got was 87 delivered . To make sure we hand delivered one gallon of his gas in a NEW CLEAN gas can to a indepenedant lab in Columbus Ohio and handed it to the Chemist and gave him our cell number and left. Never told him whos gas it was or anything other then we want to know what we had as far as octane . It is 3 nd 1/2 hour drive for us one way , We were just getting off I71 and onto US Rt. 30 when the Chemist called and he started with some high tech stuff about all he found in this test sample He then told us that it was 87 octane it had MTB in it to mkae BURN HOTTER for todays car eninge And it was Ashlands gas and a bunch of other stuff that i had no idea of what he was talking about . He did say that he would mail us a complete report on his finding and that it was deffently NOT the 93 that Eugene paid for and that is WHY we had piston failure Also he said that there was something else in the gas that he had never seen before and we told himthat Eugene had added Cen peco Tetra ethel lead additive to the farm tank as his grease salesman told him how great it was . He wanted to test a can of that STUFF as he put it also and would do that for free , i hope so as the lab test on that one gallon was 750 bucks. Now we have a bigger problem we can no longer get a true 93 and the best coming down the pipe is 90 . Yep you guessed it we have several more 706 gassers that are down or knocking due to swelled pistons and scored liners . I have no idea on how to solve the problem . I always liked them as they were inexpencive horse power a great tractor for the weeked hobby farmer , the dairy farmer that needed a start in all weather tracor for pulling the spreader or grind that batch of feed in January and Febuary when the Well Driller was by the stove . My one friend's son just toasted his 706 during corn choppen pulling a silage wagon that was way to big even for my 806 and it will even make the 1066 snort hard on the steep hills that lie between the away fields . Just don't know and nobody that i know has any idea on what to do . It is not cheap and it is no longer fun rebuilding them . I have in my life time worked on many from mild to wild Built engines for drag racing engines for tractor pulling engines for towing big truck engines many detroit's Cummins A hand full of Cats , Built them to stock spec.'s and gone plum crazy on other Built engines to place on dynos just to see how far they would go before they blew then sift thru the SPARE pieces and parts to see what let go first ( not on my dime , that makes it fun) I was building lets go fast engines before we has Summit and Jegg's . That was the fun days of run what ya brung No E T bracket no running under your dial in no standing on the brakes before ya hit the lights . Come off the line with your toes rubben the fan balde and don't back out till AFTER ya get past the lights, . Geting OLD and tired , tired of fighting it . Ell even the older diesels are having problem with the new fuel . I believe that they do not want the small guy just like in trucking they have for years been working on getting the owner operator out and they are doing a fine job of that . Small Farmers and Coal miners are next .

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