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OT Electrical question, drivening me nuts........

L

Lloyd In South Carolina

Member
Last summer I wired the small Barn/Shed at our new place. Had underground service put it, wired a panel with just basic service, 6 outlets and 5 porcilen light fixtures..... 2 circuits. Not the most complex wiring I've ever done for sure. It all passed inspection and I thought I was good to go.

The driven me nuts part..... Have a light circuit, 5 regular lights (100 watt bulbs) wired in series on 1 light switch. I'm on my 6th light switch,,, yep bought the good ones, and the cheap ones and they last about 6-10 cycles (turning the lights on and off) and the switch is shot. Obviously something wrong with my circuit!!!

#1) I've had all the fixtures apart 3 times, nothing crossed, all is wired correctly.

#2) I've left the lights on all day while I'm there on site, nothing gets hot, it never fails.

#3) Last 3 months I've used the breaker to turn the lights on and off, same switch has lasted many cycles.... of course the switch is staying on,,, not cycling.

All I can think of is I have a bad wire somewhere. At this point thinking I need to rewire the entire cicuit with new wire.

Anybody have any thoughts on how I might eliminate it down to one wire run? They are ran in series, switch to closes light, from that light to the next etc etc..

Signed, Nuts.
 
Don't you mean parallel ? Have you checked each switch with a continuity tester to be sure they are bad?
 
Only 1 switch in the circuit,,, yes continuity test shows the switch as open all the time after it fails. I've even used a higher quality 20amp rated 3 way switch ($5.50) it didn't last any longer than the others.

No, I think it is series, running from one to the next ext.. Parrelle would be running them all from the switch box.

I should have added, I thought maybe I had a bad bulb some how, some way, I replaced them with no difference.

L.
 
It should be wired with 2 wires (+ a ground) You will have a neutral and a hot wire going to your first lamp socket. The switch should be on the hot wire. From there the two wires will continue on to the additional lamps. But if you wired it wrong the inspector SHOULD have caught that. And you don't need a 3 way switch. That just confuses things. Unless of course you want two switches?
 
The circuit is parallel. If it were series, removing one bulb would make the rest of the circuit not function. A 3 way switch is more expensive, but not any better if you only have one switch. Try one more 20 amp switch that is not a 3 way.
 
You are running in parralel.if you were in series you would be running 1 wire thru all the bulbs and back to the circuit breaker,then when 1 bulb burnt out the whole circut would be out,in parralel one bulb can burn out and the rest will still work,if your wiring was wrong,you should blow the circuit breaker when you turn the switch on,not after several cycles,you may have to many bulbs on the same circut,try 60 watts and see if the same thing happens to verify if its to many amps for the switch.Or it may be the wiring,did you run 2-12 with a ground? Just my 2 cents worth.
 
I am guesing you meant the 5 lights are wired in paralell NOT series like old Christmas tree lighting???

A new switch shouldnt fail so often UNLESS its switching way more current then its designed to handle, so I'm wondering if theres a high resistance short or arc somewhere in the circuit (hot to neutral or ground) causing high current flow but not so much as to cause the breaker to trip???

Id look at each fixture and the wiring in each box and look for signs of burning or arcing etc. There may be a hot (black) wire shorting/arcing to the Neutral or Equipment Ground somewhere causing high short term temporary current flow (but insufficient time or amps to trip breaker). The problem may not, however, be in an easy place to observe, it may be as you suspected in the wiring.

Id also insure the Neutral is good and continuous throughout the circuit. Some devices are pemisssible to be used to splice Neutrals but if not they need appropriate independant splices with a pig tail ran to the fixture.

This is where an AFCI breaker could detect arcing and trip the breaker even if the current flow is less then the trip.

Are these incandescent lights or fluorescent or other HID lights?? HID lighting creates an inductive load which needs to be taken into account when selecting a switch but with only 5 lights I dont see that as the problem regardless.

CHECK FOR BURNING OR SIGNS OF ARCING OR SHORTS AND FOR GOOD NEUTRAL SPLICES

John T
 
In all due respect I think you should go online and review parallel and series circuits and understand the effect on the bulb voltage in both types of circuits and also the effect on the circuit if one bulb burns out in a series circuit.
 
You say you have the lamps wire in SERIES? IF you wire five 100 Watt bulb is series on a 120 volt circuit the bulbs would be VERY dim.

Kent
 
I think you do mean parallel, perhaps because you wired one light to the next you think it should be called series. If you did in fact wire it in series that might be your problem. But as already stated the electrical inspector SHOULD have caught that.
 
A $5 light switch isn't near good enough. Even if nothing is wrong with the panel or wiring consumer grade light switches are made for one or two lights. You need a commercial grade switch which will cost at least three times more.

Check the voltage and amps at the switch when turning on the lights so you'll know what's going on.
 
I think you should bite the bullet and hire a master electrician. He will find the wiring problem in a few minutes. Stick with him when he troubleshoots the problem. Hal
 
Shouldn't need to change bulbs to 60 watts because with just 5 100 watt bulbs in the circuit it shouldn't even be drawing 5 amps.
 
I have had .49 switches last for years in a similar situation, something is really wrong. Does it make a loud sparking noise when you turn it on? You should take a load reading on it when it's on, it must be drawing way more than 500 watts.
 
As the others have said the lamps should be in parallel and five 100W lamps would only be around 5A so the switch should be fine. What usually takes out these types of switches is a inductive load like a motor or transformer which causes a spark in the switch. A re you using a common return with a inductive load.
Frank
 
Use a wire nut and wire the two hot wires together that go to the switch. Use your breaker to turn lights on and off. Get a cheap ammprobe from harbor freight and measure the amps on the light circuit. It is possible you have more than just lights on the switch. It is also possible your switch is located in a high moisture area or a high dust area causing it to fail. Measuring your current will tell the story. You may find you have other loads feeding through the switch.
George
 

Can't be in series. The voltage drop across each bulb would only be 24 volts = very dim.

If you don't know the difference between series and parallel your inspections are for naught.
 
Lets see if I can cover all these....... thanks for all the suggestions.

It is a home quality switch, bought in Home Depot, have used many of these over the years, with no problems.. Given I've used so many on this circuit, given I tried different models they sell....all with the same results.... I think it is not the switch.

I agree, very little load on this circuit. Less than 5amps. There is no other load.

The fixtures have 2 screws on each pole. I used them to tie my circuit together.... example, ran wire to the first light, connected it with proper polarity, then again with proper polarity conected the wire going to the next fixture to the second set of screws. Someone mentioned christmas tree lights, the circuit passes thru the fixture to the next fixture, not thru the bulb to the next bulb. Standard practice in all our homes, to save wire and expense.

There is no arching heard, took the circuit apart 3 times, no burns, nothing hot or warm not a clue toward the problem.

Yes, the switch is connected as shown in the diagram. Of course replacing it numerous times has made me very familiar with it.

In total, the lights have been on for many hours... 50 or more. Switch, breaker nothing shows signs of failure or problem, until you cycle the switch on average 3 to 10 times.

I've tried a multi-meter, don't see a spike, I think at this point I'm going to buy another roll of wire and start over. Using the breaker as a switch is a pain as it is not nearby the door. It has been like this for awhile, thought maybe eventualy it would get bad enough and show signs of failure in the circuit somewhere. Of course never left it on when I'm not there in case it set the place on fire. :)

L.
 
This may not be your problem but when you cram all that wire back in the box it is real easy to have bare ground wire touching one of the hot or nuet terminals by mistake. And it"s very hard to see cause it hidden behind your switch or in the box after you close it up.
 
(quoted from post at 06:42:46 05/03/11) A $5 light switch isn't near good enough. Even if nothing is wrong with the panel or wiring consumer grade light switches are made for one or two lights. You need a commercial grade switch which will cost at least three times more.

Check the voltage and amps at the switch when turning on the lights so you'll know what's going on.
Click to expand...

Really? I've got 11 100 watt incandescent bulbs all on the same curcuit, controlled with just one consumer grade inexpensive light switch. Been in use for 12 to 13 years now. Never had a problem.
 
What is happening doesn't make sense but how about trying just the first light. Unhook the rest at that fixture and then try the switch numerous times. If it is OK there add one more light and try again and see what you come up with.
 
Splurge an extra $2.00 and use a "T" rated switch for tungsten lamps. To handle the inrush current without burning the contacts.
 
Not an electrician here but should the switch not be cutting neutral instead of power?That way full current ain't going trough the switch.
That't how i wired my shop.
I got 20 34 amp 4' fluorecents going trough 1 switch(cheapy at that)
 
Lloyd, If you can draw it we can fix it. Best advice I have. Also what kind of b ulbs. One I recall seeing, fella put switch in parallel. That would only let lights work with switch off and when on would blow circuit breaker or burn up switch. Could it be? Dave(mostly from SC b ut now in mich.)
 
(quoted from post at 10:43:38 05/03/11) Not an electrician here but should the switch not be cutting neutral instead of power?That way full current ain't going trough the switch.
That't how i wired my shop.
I got 20 34 amp 4' fluorecents going trough 1 switch(cheapy at that)
Click to expand...

Of course full current is going through the switch even if you switch the neutral. Just as much current flows back through the neutral as flows out of the hot. It's not wrong but the sockets are always hot even with the switch off. I prefer to switch the hot.

I would be putting my clamp meter (amp meter) around the hot lead coming out of the switch and see how many amps you are pulling, then disconnect each light until the current matches what you should have for the given amount of bulbs.
 
I would also be curious to see what happens when you take your voltmeter and put one lead on the ground wire and one on the neutral.
 
This is what you should have! A outdoor rated switch might make a difference. Jim
p50939.jpg
 
I think the same amount of current is in the neutral, that's what a gfci measures, right? The reason a switch should be on the hot side is so there is no available current in the system when the switch is off, for changing bulbs etc.
 
Sounds almost exactly like the problem I had several years ago. There may be a simple solution--as in my case.
Please take my answer [b:32b2b67dd2]seriously[/b:32b2b67dd2] because it worked for me :)
I was told by a HVAC certified electrician that my problem was probably caused by (ants) :eek:
Yes they will crawl across the switch contacts and the "trail marking solution" they leave behind, is a perfect insulator.
I tore a "bad" switch apart, and the contacts looked new. I sanded the contacts and it worked :eek: :eek:
I simply killed the power and saturated the switch and surrounding mounting surface with insecticide and I never had another problem.
This may not work for you but it is the least expensive solution possible. :)
 
Don"t really understand the part about saving wire.
You can wire a series circuit and a paralell circuit with the exact same amout of wire.
 
(quoted from post at 11:43:38 05/03/11) Not an electrician here but should the switch not be cutting neutral instead of power?That way full current ain't going trough the switch.
That't how i wired my shop.
I got 20 34 amp 4' fluorecents going trough 1 switch(cheapy at that)
Click to expand...

Wrong & more wrong.
Get your shop inspected before a shock or fire.
 
[i:654c4848f0]should the switch not be cutting neutral instead of power?[/i:654c4848f0]


[b:654c4848f0]Please[/b:654c4848f0] do [b:654c4848f0]not[/b:654c4848f0] do it this way. If you switch the neutral, the outlet/light socket is [b:654c4848f0]always[/b:654c4848f0] hot, even when turned off. This is dangerous, especially if the next guy along thinks that turning it off at the switch makes it "safe" to work on.


Curley haired Bob , whose dad always switched the neutral
 
Well ya duhh,electric is always dangerous to work on.Frankly i can not see the danger in it changing a light bulb even with switch on.

you'r not supposed to stick your fingers in the socket.
 
Inspect all the staples as said. Break the circuit after one or two lamps-then operate for a few days. Then add another lamp use for a few days then the next. Normal troubleshooting can also start by opening the middle of a circuit but since you have time start at the first lamp. If nothing "blows out" the switch put it all back and use a 277 v switch. VERY STRANGE PROBLEM. Wire does not [okay super rarely]come bad from the factory . Wire just does not go bad from point A to B without outside factors. Good Luck.
 
Just a quick comment. Per Nationa Electric Code Article 404.2A&B, switches are to disconnect only the ungrounded conductor. That means absolutely no switches in the neutral. Yes, it will work, but it is illegal, inspector should have caught it.
I would look for another preoblem causing switch failure. Remove all bulbs, disconnect from the breaker and check for a short or leak with a good ohm meter.
 
When hanging onto the bulb, if your fingers contact the metal threaded base of the lamp it's self.While the lamp is in or touching the socket. You will be contacting 120V if somebody went and switched the neutral.
 
You won't see a "spike" with a multimeter; it's not nearly fast enough to catch a spike. You need to use an oscilloscope to find spikes. And depending on the characteristics of the spike and the o'scope, you may not even then see the spike.
 
I would do what John T has suggested. I would first suspect a short between hot and safety ground in one of the fixtures or even in the switch box.

I would further suspect that your safety ground connection/breaker panel may not have a good ground connection to neutral in the system where it is supposed to be connected. If it does not and you have a ground rod connected to the breaker panel you could have extra current flowing thru the earth via the hot to safety ground short.

If the safety ground is properly bonded to neutral the breaker would trip if this was the problem.

I am assuming that the breaker serving this circuit is in a sub panel in the shop?
How/where does this panel get its power?

If this is a sub panel it should be fed with 4 wires from the main panel where neutral and safety ground should be bonded.

Best regards
Gary
 
Start with the last fixture. Drop the fixtures 1 at a time and see if your problem goes away. Any switch you buy at HD should last years on that small a circuit. It is not a problem with the quality of your switches. i would not spend the money on an Arc Fault breaker but that may very well drive you to finding the problem because if you have an arc fault problem it will trip the breaker until you eliminate the problem. I have seen many cases where the fixture was pushed up in the box and the screws were touching the bare grounding wire. Also I have seen the wire clamped too tight where it enters the box. Did you use metallic or non metallic boxes? I have seen switches with dead shorts flipped on many times trying to run down a problem and the switch did not fail.
 
I didn't mean "changing the bulb" when I said "working on it". I meant taking the cover plate off, trying to wire something else into the circuit, taking a pair of metal pliers to remove a busted bulb, etc.


The new "polarized" plugs are actually set up so the metal on the outside of the bulb is neutral, so even if you grab onto the metal with the switch on you shouldn't get a tingle.

I agree it's not a big deal if you're just changing a bulb. Technically you should turn off the circuit at the breaker to do the other stuff I mentioned, but lots of people don't bother -- especially if the breakers/fuses aren't well marked and you don't want to have to reset every clock in the house when you're done.
 
Jiles is right about ants. I forgot about some aC units tha would need relay replacement every year. Finally looked and saw them little buggers on the contacts. Trimmed all bushes and stopped em dead. Dave
 
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