OT electrical ??

Correct me if I am wrong. Lets take a long copper wire say 10 miles long. Start at point a and run it to point b 5 miles away then back to point c which is next to point a. Lets put 1000 watts of DC power in the wire at point a then measure it at point c. We will have a little less than 1000 watts coming out because of line loss. RIGHT??? Then lets wind that wire that is insulated just like the windings in a tractor generator or alternator into a coil. We put the same wattage into it and measure again & there is a little less coming out. After some time the coil will get warm. The heat generated would account for the line loss. So the heat and the power out is equal to the power going in. RIGHT??? You can't gain or lose anything. RIGHT? Correct me if this is wrong. I will continue later.

but the amish mantles are so real looking ! lol

Essentially yes. You are losing power to resistance. If you had posted a size or gauge for that 10 mile long copper wire, we could figure out just how much resistance it would have and how much power you would lose.
You may not generate an appreciable amount of heat but yes, it would essentially be converted to heat.

I got to Mile # 4 and gave up. I should have started with the coil part first.

Well it is not correct.
1000 watts is a measurement of power. There is a requirement that the 1000 watts be drawn into a load (say a 1000 watt light bulb) One could measure Amps at any point in the wire, supply, bulb or socket, and find the same amps. The voltage measured at any point to a reference ground will vary as resistance changes to that location. Jim

[i:654c4848f0]"I will continue later."[/i:654c4848f0]

Yes, I'm sure you will.

OH, I see where this is going.........I did not connect the OP with the question being asked........forget everything!

Teddy, your really into this energy stuff, sorry I havent read yet what you e mailed me. Take these facts into account, then you can answer your own basic question, and YES you're correct (if amps pass through a circuit from a source to a load) in as far as:

If you supply energy (Volts x Amps x Time) with say a generator or the utility or whatever into a load and then measure the energy (Volts x Amps x Time) the load dissipates (or the HP a motor produces), you would get the same EXCEPT FOR THE ENERGY USED/WASTED AS HEAT IN THE TRANSFER IN THE CONDUCTORS (The I Squared R losses) plus some of the energy produced by the load (say a motor) is also wasted as heat and not all goes to the motors HP output. Im unsure of a motors exact efficiency but would guess maybe 75% goes to HP and 25% to heat/friction losses???

Since copper wire is NOT a perfect conductor (it has some albeit small resistance) when you pass current through it, a voltage drop (V = IR) occurs across it and yes current flow through a resisistor produces heat.

Sooooooo the energy into that circuit is NOT destroyed ONLY CHANGED IN FORM, the majority goes to the load while some is converted to heat (I Squared R) during transmission through imperfect conductors STILL ALL THE ENERGY IN = ALL THE ENERGY OUT, its just some goes to the motors HP,,,,,,some to heat in the motor,,,,,some to heat in the conductors.

Likewise and even if you Teddy dont believe this, the laws of Physics and Thermodynamics tell us (which I as an engineer choose to believe) its not posible for a machine to produce more energy then one supplies to it. If say a motor had perfect frictionless bearings and its windings were zero resistance and there were no other friction/heat losses, it will produce almost as much energy as supplied to it but Im unaware of any such motor or any device that can produce more energy then you put into it.

Yall take care now, I gotta check my DC Motor in the shop, I have it running off a battery and turning an alternator (which is charging the battery) and I'm afraid the battery may become overcharged YIKES

Ol John T and all

Lifes not really that short, its just that youre dead for such a long time...

T52F,

It is useless to have these discussions if we aren't in agreement as to what constitutes energy, power and force. A watt is a unit of power for the rest of the world, but I'm afraid I don't know what you and CJ are talking about when you use these terms.

I stopped Crackpot Joe's video after I got to the point where it was stated that "This motor runs on VOLTAGE, not CURRENT!". Yeesh.

Yo Mark, you stated:

Hmmmmmmmmm "I stopped Crackpot Joe's video after I got to the point where it was stated that "This motor runs on VOLTAGE, not CURRENT!". Yeesh"

And here I was taught at Purdue University and as an Engineer for The Century Electric Motor Company that it was current flow through the motors windings that created an electromagneiic field that ran motors ??????????? Of course, an Electromotive Force (EMF or Voltage) across the motors winding is what causes that current flow.

I agree with ya Mark, just chattin in hopes we might enlighten others who may be electrically challenged ya know

Watt = Volts x Amps (if a unity 1 PF) I consider that as Instantaneous Power

Energy (what the Utility charges) is Volts x Amps X Time i.e. like watt or killowatt hours

Yall take care now

John T

Yes and the Amish dudes too.

If applying enough voltage across the wire ends that V X A = 1000W . Then what is the question?
There is 1KW of heat being dissipated along the 10 miles of wire.
The voltage and current would depend on the wire gauge and composition.
Your question/state indicates a profound lack of understanding the most basic fundamentals of electricity and power.

I guess he just doesn't understand how a toaster works. LOL

If you're thinking about losses, Google George Westinghouse and his AC vs DC current theory. In simple terms, electrons are set in a row and are pushed along the length of the wire. In DC, each electron has to make a complete circle. It takes more effort to do that than with alternating current. AC moves one electron into the wire then pulls it back out. It requires less effort to move the electrons only a little than making the complete circle. That explains why Westinghouse's AC is used over Edison's DC in long distance transmission.

Well I don't see anyone coming out and saying that the total imput does NOT equal the total output as I stated, so I assume that to be correct. Total in = total out. Now here is the sticker. When you disconnect that DC imput how do you explain that jolt that the coil produces when the magnetic field collapses? In a coil with 10 miles of wire that jolt would be enough to stop your heart if it passed through your body!

Uh, Brian, the reason multiphase AC power (developed by Nikola Tesla, then licensed to Westinghouse) predominated over DC is because the ease with which AC voltage can be stepped up or down. Efficiency per se isn't better with AC, but efficiency can be improved by using high voltage for transmission.

Actually, for long distance (>300 miles) transmission as well as undersea transmission, DC has a decided edge in efficiency over AC. There are a number of losses inherent in AC transmission that don't affect DC.

This is where you have been falsely taught. Compare electricity with water, where flow is amps or gallons per minute and voltage is pressure psi. Take a garden hose & punch a small hole in it. This would represent the magnetic field coming out of the wire. Turn the water on and you will have a good flow (amps) out of the end of the hose with low pressure with very little coming out of the punched hole. Then as you close up the end of the hose , pressure will get higher and the stream ( magnetic field) will get greater also. But the flow is reduced. At least that is how I see it. When you use a 12 volt battery to boost a 6 volt system the starter spins the tractor engine faster than it does on 6 volts and the amps will be less with the 12 volt imput. Watch your meters when a battery gets low. When the voltage drops, the starter turns slower yet the amps will rise on each compression stroke. The amps create heat . The voltage creates the magnetic field.

(quoted from post at 19:17:02 04/26/11) In a coil with 10 miles of wire that jolt would be enough to stop your heart if it passed through your body!

Click to expand...

High voltage, VERY low current. You have not gained anything.

Yes, your TOTAL energy out would equal energy in. But the amount of ELECTRICITY is not, on account of resistance and heat loss.

I'm talking simply about the conductor itself. Of course the power has to be used by something, or the power would not exist. Otherwise, you are arguing without the most basic knowledge of what you are arguing about.

(quoted from post at 17:17:02 04/26/11)Now here is the sticker. When you disconnect that DC imput how do you explain that jolt that the coil produces when the magnetic field collapses? In a coil with 10 miles of wire that jolt would be enough to stop your heart if it passed through your body!

Click to expand...

That's how a coil works. You turn low voltage, high amperage into high voltage, low amperage. You haven't magically created any more energy than you already had. And the jolt? Remember Ohm's Law? In order to get the jolt, you must have enough voltage that when combined with your body's resistance, you get enough amperage going through your body to feel. You can die from a 6 volt battery. You can survive tens of thousands of volts. It comes down to your body's resistance and the corresponding amperage.

25 milli amps will stop a heart in the 1/100th of a second the current lasts .
Try running a light on 25 milli amps for 1/100 of a second and get back to me on how well that works.

amps current passing through a winding develop a magnetic field, not voltage.

quote "At least that is how I see it" Unquote.

This now explains why the world looks so different to you with your head stuck up your azz.

(quoted from post at 18:29:08 04/26/11) 25 milli amps will stop a heart in the 1/100th of a second the current lasts .
Try running a light on 25 milli amps for 1/100 of a second and get back to me on how well that works.

Click to expand...

I thought it was a little higher, but I could be wrong. I do remember doing the math and subjecting myself to 10 ma. Yeah, not doing that again. My arms twitched pretty good. My instructor could go to 12. Fun and games, lol!

In response to the 10 mile loop of wire example. Yes you are basically correct however, it is not an issue of what goes in at point "a" and what comes out at point "c". In your example the wire is simply acting as a resistor which is dissipating 1000 watts of power in the form of heat. Since no work is being performed the 1000 watts is all dissipated in the form of heat. To determine the power input the voltage is measured across point "a" and "c" and the current is constant along the wire. The power is calculated from the product of volts x amps and must equal 1000 in your example. Yes, you are correct there is line loss, the loss is 1000 watts all in the form of heat. In the case of winding the 10 miles of wire into a coil, again the loss would be 1000 watts, all in the form of heat. In both cases the wire will become warm however, 10 miles of wire in free air dissipating a small amount of power will not become warm to the touch. You are correct in that there con not be a gain or loss however, your statement, "the heat and power out is equal to the power going in", is misleading. The heat and power out is one and the same and equal to 1000 watts, all lost in the form of heat. In summary, the power input is 1000 watts of electrical energy which is equal to the 1000 watts of power dissipated in the form of heat.

t52f,

There must be a web site somewhere where people who think(?) like you hang out. You ought to find it and expound your views there instead of here.

Pete

Then how do you explain the huge magnetic field around the high voltage power lines? The amps are low & there are no windings.

(quoted from post at 20:15:11 04/26/11) Then how do you explain the huge magnetic field around the high voltage power lines? The amps are low & there are no windings.

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It's all relative. Go touch one and let us know how many amps are in it.

Teddy, You need to read up on electricity and magnetism, but here is a simple answer. You can't have current flowing without having a magnetic field. Take a compasss and place next to any wire passing direct current. If the wire is vertical and the electrons are running upward, the magnetic fields will be in a clockwise direction around the wire, which you can see with a compass. I think this is called the left hand rule. The ammeter on some lawn mowers simply pass a wire near a compass to indicate charge and discharge. I think Tesla may have discovered that coiling a wire around a soft iron core will cause the magnetic fields to concentrate and add up. These fields are like stored energy. Keep in mind when current is flowing in a wire you have MF. Stop the current and the MF collapse, which induces current in the wire, not to mention high voltage. Shocking! That's why a coil makes a spark. Electricity and magnetism is the course most physics majors hate.

Unless you have a superconductor, current passing through any wire will produce heat energy. The power loss is calculated by I squared R. Square the amps times the resistance of the wire.
Hope this clears up your question.
George

Amps are low in a transmission line? Then why don't they make them out of 28 gauge wire?

I'm making the unreasonable assumption that we are talking about the same amps. In my world, amps are a measurement of electrical current, which is the rate that electrical charge moves through a conductor. One ampere equals one coulomb per second. Feel free to come up with your own definition that's not in any physics textbook.

Teddy, it's time for you to come to grips with the fact that whatever money you've invested with Joe Newman is down the drain. As much as I enjoy these ludicrous discussions, it isn't healthy for you to stay in this perpetual state of denial. Time to move on.

(quoted from post at 23:15:11 04/26/11) Then how do you explain the huge magnetic field around the high voltage power lines? The amps are low & there are no windings.

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A transmission line or any other straight conductor is still a single winding.
Low current? The 500,000 V transmission lines behind my farm carry 2000amps per phase. Is 2000amps low current?
"Huge" magnetic field? How many gauss is there in "huge"? I don't see airplanes, farm equipment or cars stuck to the lines with magnetism. No metal below glowing red with induction either.
Time to admit that joe newman has taken your trusting, well wishing but technically naive self to the cleaners.
How much time have you spent in school and did you pass any physics science or tech courses?

This is my first "foray" into Teddy's theories......aka Newman machines so of course I started watching the video etc. For some odd reason it stopped playing part way through. When I went to re-start it, I could not jump ahead to the spot where it left off.
So I took some time and did a little "research" of my own. I found it interesting that the doctors and engineers sited in the opening credits of the video could only be found in relation to Joe Newman. I also found a video from a guy who had bought into the theories and he and a group of others had actually spent money to purchase one of Newman's machines and never did get one. http://www.youtube.com/user/kdaveem#p/u/16/l_YikaYUEgY
Here is one of a series of this guy's videos. He seems to have a bit of knowledge of electrical theory, enough now to realize that power is not measured in volts and it is not measured in amps, it is volts x amps.

Anyway, it might be helpful to hear it from an ex follower of Joe Newman that the man is a scam artist. He's been at it for years.....well, decades. If it really worked he would either be a very rich man and the world would be a better place or he'd be a very rich man and he'd never be heard from again!

When the voltage in a power line is stopped suddenly there ae no additional conductors through which the magnetik field passes as it collapses. As such the field just disappears. If the conductor is wound up into a coil the coil conductors are proximate to the collapsing field, making serious electricity. Look at autotransformers. and the way regular ignition coils work. There is no substitute for physics, and though some are a bit academic in flavor, they are not comprehensively in error. Jim at 35.000' over Colorado.