OT - Home Electrical Mystery

Ok... I know enough about home wiring to make me dangerous. I've put in simple circuits for lights, outlets, etc, but I've got some troubleshooting I'm having trouble with.

I have an electrical box in my kitchen right next to the stove. I'm guessing it was an outlet at one time, but when I bought the house it just had a cover plate on it. It only has one 2+ground wire coming into the box. It is the only thing on a 15A breaker. With the breaker on, I get 120V across the white wire and the bare ground wire (similar to the rest of my outlets), 0Vbetween black and ground (as it should be), and here is my trouble - 0V between black and white wires.

I've checked the black wire at the breaker and it is connected solidly. I've also traced the wire and I've found no splices (it runs direct from panel to outlet).

What's going on? Bad breaker? Bad wire? Bad splice I can't see? Is my multimeter messed up? :?:

Thanks for any help you can give.

Sounds like there is a very messed up splice somewhere in that cable or incorrect wiring at the breaker box.
At the single breaker, The black hot wire should connect to the breaker, while the white nuetral wire should connect to the nuetral buss bar in the box, with the bare ground wire connected to the ground buss bar in the box.


I believe you should see 0 volts between the bare ground wire and white nuetral wire, and 120V from the Black hot wire to either the white nuetral or bare ground.

I'm guessing this is an older home. I found the same thing in mine several years back. In the day, they soldered wires and made splices with boxes about any place that could hold a box. Mine had a bad connection and was found by moving around the wires by hand over a drop ceiling. A new wire nut and covering with electrical tape worked well.

Any switches near by may have been connected to one

I have two in living room like that that goes to outlets

"2+ground wire"

WHAT is a 2+ ground wire???

If the white wire is hot I will bet it is an old switch leg from a light fixture box somewhere. That is the only reason you should have a hot white wire on a 110 volt circuit. Generally at the light box the hot wire in the box was connected to the white going to the switch and the black wire brought the power back to the light after the switch was turned on. There should not be any 15 amp plug circuits in a kitchen, This type of wiring is what I always referred to as a crossed switch leg. It is legal to do but the white wire must be marked black both at the light and in the switch box.

Is that box up high or down low? I'd suspect it could be a 240v outlet for the stove if low or more likely a 120v for a range hood. If they removed the range hood, they might have pulled the wires going into the hood as well.

It is likely your old main breaker panel has the black wire coming from the breaker and both and white and bare wires hook into the same buss which is how they used to do it.

You should have 120v at the black wire where it connects to the breaker when it is closed. But if you don't have 120 at the other end of the black wire then there is a problem.

You really need to trace your wires and maybe do a continuity check on them with them disconnected from the main panel. I suspect your wire goes somewhere else such as an outlet or switch hidden somewhere in the cabinets. They may have run the wire to/from the garbage disposal as well. Disconnect both the white and black wires at the panel and see if anything doesn't work such as an outlet, light, ceiling fan, disposal, and so on. Maybe something hidden in the cabinets. Since the white wire is hot, something is fishy. Leave them disconnected and taped off in the main panel if you can't sort it out. Let us know.

you never said if the breaker was a double throw or single...if double most like a bad breaker if you don't have voltage where black wire is connected...where is white wire in breaker box... old style 220 has 2 hots and a ground ...new should have 4 wires

Your answer is correct, and simple.!!
If the white wire is connected to a breaker, you would get 220 between the wires at the box in the kitchen. If you need 220 use a real 220 rated 3 wire W/ground cable.
If 110 is needed, it is as noted here. The black is hot, the white is neutral, and green/bare is ground. Jim

I'm not sure I described it very well. Here's some more info and some pictures. BTW, 2+ground is what I call a cable with 2 insulated wires (B&W) and one bare wire (ground).

The box is above the counter at the same height as all of the other switches and outlets in my kitchen. The house is about 40 years old and it is my understanding that in MN they use to put the ground and white wires on the same bus. You can see that in this picture of the panel. The black wire is connected to the 15A breaker. I can follow the wire from the panel to the point where it goes up the kitchen wall. I assume it goes straight to the box since nothing else is affected by the breaker being turned off (I've had it off for the last 3 years).






It doesn't make any sense. With the white and ground going to the same bus the voltage between the two should be 0 and it should be 120 between black and white and between black and ground. Instead I have 120 between white and ground 0 between black and white and between black and ground. I don't think this is even possible. Either I have a splice somewhere that someone messed up or my multimeter is messed up.

I hope this makes more sense. Thanks for the help and ideas.

Okay since Im NOT THERE and have to make several guesses and am unsure what you mean by
" It only has one 2+ground wire coming into the box" NO WARRANTY ON MY ANSWERS

IF?????? The "box" has two insulated wires (bigger gauge like 8 or 6 etc) and one bare/green wire my best GUESS is it used to supply 240 volts to a stove (Depends on wire size also??) Iffffffff thats the case it used to be wired to a 2 pole 240 volt breaker NOT a single pole and the voltage would read 240 line to line or 120 from either line to the bare/green ground.

Old 240 volt stoves used 3 wire feeds, 2 hots and 1 bare/green equipment ground. ITS NOT CORRECT TO USE THE EQUIPMENT GROUND AS A NEUTRAL RETURN (i.e. 120 volts line to ground) although that took place in some old stoves

NOWWWWWWWWW if those 3? wires are now instead connected, 1 to a 120 volt single pole breaker (or only one side of a 2 pole breaker) and 1 was NOT connected, and 1 is to the equipment ground buss....................You would measure 120 volts across the wire to the breaker and the other bare/green equipment ground..........0 volts across the unconnected wire to any of the others

Just trace out the wires and see where they are connected in the electrical panel.....If ones to a single pole breaker (or only one side of a 2 pole breaker) and the other to the equipment ground buss, you measure 120 volts across those 2 butttttttttttttt the bare/green equipment wire IS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE USED AS THE NEUTRAL.

If you wanna use those wires to feed 120 volts, Id wire the black to a single pole breaker, usually white to the Neutral Buss,,,,bare/green to the equipment ground buss. In some panels theres only one buss where Neutrals and Grounds BOTH wire.

If you wanna use those 3 wires to feed a 240 volt circuit, wire one insulated wire to one side of a 2 pole breaker, the other insulated wire to the other pole on a 2 pole breaker, the bare/green to the equipment ground buss

NOTE a metallic junction or outlet box also needs bonded to the equipenmt ground ya know.

Let us know

John T Too long retired electrical engineer

I agree with huntingreen. This sounds like it MIGHT have been a switch leg. The voltage measurements are exactly right for a switch leg. If it is that, the white wire should have been taped with black electrical tape to indicate that it is a "hot" wire going to a switch.

I've always heard this referred to as "white made black".

Can you see the black/white wire where it comes out of the wall at the top of the wall (or in the basement depending on the routing of the wire)? That might help to verify just just what it is used for.

Good luck,

Tom in TN

Well, +100 years ago, all wires were insulated single wires to just go from one knob and tube to another. Actually safer than modern 'cause a screw or nail could never hit two at the same time. Then 2 insulated wires, one dark one light cloth or rubber. Then they made 2 wires in a 'romex or BX' covering. one white plastic, one black. Then laws changed, and added one bare. They call it '2 wire-ground' , now I guess they are pushing 4 wires to do the job of 2. This isn't all that old looking at the box, the circut box and wallboard, 1970's max. I am with the guys who think this is actually going to a wall switch, it turned on a plugged in lamp rather than a ceiling light. Have someone turn switches on and off while keeping a multimeter on the black and white wires. I can't really come directly from the breaker and give you this much greif- unless a screw or nail shorted the line. you might want to get a local electrician if you can't sort this out soon. If the fire dept- and insurance guy finds you been messing with this yourself... whoa.

Just a question, is there a black wire connected to your netural buss bar? It looks like that to me in the picture. Bud

I think you need to find out where the White wire is getting it's feed. Try hooking the White and ground wires to a radio cord. With the radio playing, turn off the breakers one at a time until the radio quits. Then search upstairs for whatever else lost power.

Like others have said it sounds like a switch leg. Do you have a garbage disposal in the sink. Years ago disposals were turned on with a wall switch near the sink. Some newer disposals turn on by locking the drain plug. If you have a receptical under the sink check the wiring in it.

Bud,

There is, I'm not sure what it goes to. I'll double check that it isn't for this circuit (but I'm 98% sure it isn't).

Tony and Tom,
The idea of it being a switch leg make sense. I had traced this circuit as much as I could until it went up into the kitchen wall. I'll see if it changes w/ any of the switches in the kitchen. I sure hope it's not because a nail has shorted it (wouldn't the breaker flip?).

John T,
It is definitely for a 120 circuit and the bare wire was grounded to the metal box. I'm going to put in a plastic "old work" box. I also agree that I should get 120 between the one connected to the breaker and the bus, but that's not what I'm getting. That makes me think the switch leg idea might be right (especially when the breaker will shut everything off).

Thanks everyone. I might try the switches over lunch.

I would say the white wire must be broken somewhere.
We have an older house (1954) that was remodeled in
2006, including wiring, not all new wire but some
with a new breaker panel. We have a few receptacles
that are dead, 14 in off the floor, not switches. I
have tried to trace them but it's like the wires
were cut off inside the wall, doesn't say much for
electrical inspectors, it was inspected in 2006!

can ya feel another wire inside wall above the box may have been a switch for a hood or ceiling light
I just don't understand the ground on that one if it was

What is that black wire on the 4th screw from the bottom? Where does it go? Maybe that is why the black in the outlet shows no juice.

Old Roy,

That is a good thought. I was talking it over with some co-workers at lunch and we thought of the hood idea too. That could be it because there is a microwave hood over the stove now, but I know that wasn't original.

Bud,

I plan on checking that black wire tonight, but I'm pretty sure that's not it because there is a black wire going to the breaker that turns off the juice at the box in the kitchen.

I'm starting to feel like Sherlock Holmes...

To get what you are seeing at the box, that wire HAS to be cut and spliced somewhere. It may be hidden inside the wall. In most kitchens the outlets are daisy chained, and many have a GFCI that controls all of them. You have probably found why there is no outlet there, the wiring is messed up inside the wall, unless you flollowed the wrong wire and that black wire on the neutral bus is the cable you are looking at..

Isn"t black supposed to be live and white neutral? Yet your saying the black is the one that goes to the breaker but to ground is 0 volts