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End of ethanol....

M

muckfarmer

Member
With the budget crunch being what it is and food prices headed to the sky again, this is going to hurt! Once the ethanol subsidy is cut, I could see a 2$ drop in corn easy. We use over 1/3 of our corn crop now for making gas and even if this was cut in half- look out!
 
Sorry Muckfarmer I agree and disagree. What's driving Corn prices? Demand and input costs! So if the subsidy is cut demand drops driving down prices BUT input costs do not drop. Corn production drops untill supply just equals demand and prices come back up. It won't be quite that easy and simplistic. The other thing driving enthanol is environmental and vehicle performance. Over time we have learned that the additives the oil industry comes up with has side effects that are not desirable while enthanol really doesn't effect the environment so much. Also we are learning how to build engines that work with alcohol effectively. One more thing the greed of the oil industry with their unrealistic price jumps are getting the economy/people to accept high fuel costs so that when the oil industry portion of the cost of fuel is controlled the delta will replace the subsidy.
 
I am suprised it hasnt already ended! When gas prices go up; the subsidy is less important to make it competitive as opposed to regular oil based fuel. If oil goes to $200 a barrel ethanol will be a bargain I would bet, & with goverment debt they really need to end all subsidies except for maybe the smallest 5, or 10% of farmers. Lets face it; 5000 acre farms were never originally meant to be given goverment handouts, & its really criminal to keep it going. Tyson foods the offender of hiring illegals (who pay no income tax) received about a 1/2 million $"s in subsidies just a few years ago, & still had profits in the 100"s of millions! Why did they need a single dollar? Subsidies not suprisingly have been a carrot for congress, & some presidents, & this country needs weined from it badly! & I mean all areas of subsidies, not just agriculture!



Then You have the USDA which sends subsidy payments to people living in housing divisions, & when they send the checks back saying they dont farm are told to keep it anyway; What a travisty that is by itself!!! Its just another goverment mess that needs to almost, or totally end!



Scotty
 
Well said, it is the norm for government programs.

I have been asking many questions to FEMA recipiants latley. Other than a extreme overload of bottled water, the program is a total joke. If they were to show up again, they will need body guards.

Our farm programs are handed to the wealthy in my comunity, so they buy up the farms, drive up rent prices so the new, and small guys have to drop out.

The biggest plus is they are forced to pay more property taxes.
 
I agree about reducing the subsidy but what really is driving up the price of oil and corn?

Investors or speculators

The supply of oil has not been cut off to the US but everyone that thinks it will has started to buy oil and thus causing it to go up.

Same with corn there may be a short supply this late summer so investors are buying up now in hopes of cashing in this summer.

We need to some how put a cap on speculation.

Gary
 
You didnt know after the alcohol is removed the rest is fed to livestock so we realy arent using corn away from the food supply
 
at $6.00 corn there's $.08 worth of corn in a large box of corn flakes so tell me why groceries are going up so much, I like my ethanol blend gas, no more worry about ice in gas lines. Do you suppose a growing world population, urban sprawl and major weather events in grain growing areas of the world and greedy traders have any affect on grain prices? I don't think I will be consulting you for financial advice anytime in the near future.
 
If the petroleum-to-corn-to-ethanol model makes economic sense, then it should be able to stand on its own legs without being propped up by outlandish subsidies. Corporate welfare at its worst.
 
It's about time.

Corn derived ethanol for use as a motor fuel is not cost effective without taxpayer subsidies.

Simply remove the subsidies and allow the market to work.

Dean
 
What? Alcohol going up? Now that's a travesty. We must put a stop to it. Shouldn't there be a program to help out consumers?

Jim
 
Ethanol will be around as long as gas prices linger around 4 bucks or above- I agree it has to stand on its own, and I think it will, with the way things are going in the middle east.
 
There was an article in the Ontario Farmer recently, the farmer they were interviewing said getting the byproducts of ethanol was like someone stealing your wallet, taking everything out, and giving you the wallet back. SO I get the impression there ain"t a whole lot of nutritional value left in it.
 
you are not very well informed. i feed ddg"s to our cattle [dried distillers grains]. it has thirty percent protien. regular corn is twelve percent protien.
 
Reading this, I see, some like ethanol in gas and some don,t. That is A OK. I don't want it in my gas. There are people out there that want me to be forced, like I am now to have ethanol in my gas. I am more American than saying I don't want anyone to have ethanol in their gas. Lets have both and if you want it good and if you don't good, buy what you want. OK some will say the market won't support that. Well if the market won't, then we can have what ever the market will support and if that happen to be with ethanol I won't say a word.
 
How are input costs driving corn prices? The buyer does not care what the producers costs are, the market is set by the commodity traders, its all based on either an actual low supply or the expectation of a future lowered supply. How are the oil companies any greedier than anyone else? They trade in the open market and buy and sell and try to meet demand, what about 12 years ago when the oil pricwe dropped to around 9 dollars per barrel and stayed there for roughly a year, were the oil companies greedy then? How about 2 years ago when the price dropped to 37 dollars? How about any time in the future when the price of oil will once again spiral down then back up, what puppetmaster is pulling those strings? The problem is not greedy oil companies, the problem is stupid, ill informed politicians and citizens who oppose every single initiative to drill and produce in our own country while consuming oil products at record amounts and whining about the price. From 1947 to 1972 oil traded at roughly 3.00 per barrel, how could oil stay steady for 25 years while everything else tripled? Because we had a steady supply both internationally and within our own borders, 1973 marked the Arab oil embargo but it was also during the early 70"s that the whacko radical environmental activism really began and the socialists within the nnalert party recognized a cause they could champion to help bring down the United States. Why didn"t those greedy oil companies manipulate the price for that 25 year span when the nation was really prospering?. I guess the oil companies were run by choir boys back then.
 
The reason the price of everything is going up has nothing to do with Ethanol being made from corn. Greedy speculators have the market rigged and the market doesn't work by supply and demand anyway.Besides that,farmers don't set the price of the grain.Like somebody said,after they make alcohol out of it they can still use it for feed. You are being lied to.These crooked bankers are doing all of this,then they think they will hid behind our military.What happens next is probably WW3 and they will lie to you about who starts that too,that's if you listen to them.
You all need to read more.The commodities market has not been on supply and demand for years now.Ever since the last oil company merger,it seems like the biggest 5 oil company's are the same company.They have a monopoly on it and run it up and down ,mostly up,all the time now.
Micheal W Masters testimony to congress in 2008 tells what happened and who did it.I called my Senator last summer about it,nothing has changed,they are still doing what they did in 2008. This is something you and everybody else should demand that they fix.These crooked banks got us to bail them out and they give us 4 dollar gas for our trouble.These crooked banks gamble with our tax dollars playing some derivatives scam.They have trillion and trillions of dollars on paper,and the speculators work for the big banks.
Of course the politicians are bought out and cant seem to see whats wrong.Yeah right! They know exactly whats wrong,but until the people demand that they do something about it,they are going to take their bribe and hope the propaganda spreaders can keep you from finding out what they are doing.
 
Regular corn is probably more like 7-9% protein... You are getting condensed protein in the DDG and little energy as that's what the ethanol has removed... I would speculate that when the DDG/protein market is saturated and there's nowhere for the product to go... then the economics of ethanol will drastically change. It's true value is likely to quickly come to light...
I's also speculate that we're probably nearing the point where there is no longer much economical demand for the DDG...

Rod
 
Not to offend you but what would be the reason you don' want ethanol in the gas ? I have burned 10% and did get .7 less miles per gal but I also burned E85 and at 50 cents cheaper the regular my cents per mile of driving was less with e85 but I did use more gallons .Also the book for my pickup said with E85 engine hp would be higher but mileage would be less but cost wise it was a little cheaper
 
Thought I was the only farmer to think your way. The only thing farm subsidys have done is help drive the small farmers out of business. The big farmers use their large payments to buy out smaller farmers.
As far as ethanol is concerned, if it can't survive on its own merits after years of taxpayer subsidy, let it go broke.
Yes, I do raise corn to sell as grain. Joe
 
(quoted from post at 08:44:22 03/06/11) Not to offend you but what would be the reason you don' want ethanol in the gas ? I have burned 10% and did get .7 less miles per gal but I also burned E85 and at 50 cents cheaper the regular my cents per mile of driving was less with e85 but I did use more gallons .Also the book for my pickup said with E85 engine hp would be higher but mileage would be less but cost wise it was a little cheaper
Click to expand...

IF all the subsidies that went to ethanol was used to reduce the cost of pure gasoline, you would have reals savings. Your "cost wise" doesn't count your tax dollars that went to ethanol production.---ALSO---I have old cars lawnmowers, I like all old stuff and the ethanol makes the rubber components go bad. Like I said, have it both ways so I can get what I want and you can get what you want. I have no problem with you wanting ethanol. I do have a problem with you not wanting me to have ethanol free gasoline.
NO, I am not offended.
 
T-40 -- Just how do the speculators have the markets rigged? You do realize that the commodities markets are worldwide don't you? If its rigged, who decides who wins and who loses?
 
Only trouble with that theory is that the government MANDATES so many gallons of ethanol be used every year,seems like it's up to something like 12 billion annually. Unless they change the mandate,blenders will have to use that amount no matter what the cost to consumers is.
 
How much energy from whatever source does it take to convert a bushel of corn into how much ethanol ? And then how much energy to dry the distillers grain ? Looks to me that a lot of energy would be consumed in the two processes. Are the values of the two resultant products enough to cover costs of raw material ( corn ) and energy used ? Without subsidies , is it cost effective on both counts?
 
The 'Bankers" are all on the same team.The stock market in England is owned by the same bankers that own the banks in Britain and the USA,Canada and Australia.If these bankers don't directly own them,their branch's do.There is only a few countries the banks don't own and I forgot which ones they are,but they are so poor they hardly make a difference any way.I told you to look at Micheal W.Masters testimony before congress in 2008.He had graphs and all kinds of stuff that showed how the stock market worked.My Senator says nothing has changed either.The crooks are still manipulating the stock market.
You have to look it up yourself. Its too big of a deal for me to tell you all of the tentacles of this octopus of evil that has our economy all tied up in it.
If your politicians are honest with you,they know exactly what was done.Stock market regulations were deregulated and that caused this economic collapse we are in.Since a lot of politicians already were in cahoots with these bankers to get elected,they like things just like they are now.They want to use the ability to manipulate commodities prices to get more crooks elected so there wont be anything you can do about it.
This didn't just happen a couple of years ago,its been getting worse and worse for a hundred years in our country.They just about have our country ruined.They already did the same thing to Russia,and they also killed 150 million people in Russia over 80 years when they took it over.
 
Ethanol subsidies were established back when corn was close to $2, US farmers were struggling. The US dollar was high and there wasn't as much export demand for US grain. Oil was $16 to $24 a barrel. At that time using cheap grain to make ethanol and to help a struggling industry (agriculture) made sense.

Times have changed. Now The US dollar is low. There is a strong export demand for US grain. Corn is now $6. Agriculture has recovered and is now one of the strongest and most profitable industries in the country compared to everyone else in the country.

Oil is $100 a barrel and rising. The price of corn has increased 200% to 300% since subsidies were established, but oil has incresed 400% to 600% in the same time. The ethanol industry should be able to stay profitable on it's own now. So it will continue to consume corn and help push corn prices higher.

Yes, dropping the subsidies will hurt the ethanol industry a little, but it isn't needed anymore. With the strong export market a farmer won't notice much difference.
 
The people who killed 150 million Russians and ruined Russias economy were called Marxists Communists, in this country there called nnalert.
 
I couldn't DISAGREE more,but given that every time that we farmers are flying high,the government does something STUPID to cause us to crash and burn,and they WILL do it again this time. I have precious little doubt that eliminating the ethanol mandate or something just as devastaing is coming down the road sooner rather than later.
I feel sorry for these younger farmers who haven't lived through something like that idiot Carter's grain embargo. They're gonna get caught with their pants down and many lives are going to be destroyed with the stroke of a pen from a know nothing inner city politician.
 
For every penny gas go up that 1.2 BILLION dollars out of the spending power for other goods. Gas has gone up 50 cents in the last month so look out recession time.
 
I think ethanol should be able to stand on it"s own feet, i see no reason for any subsidy. Having said that, using corn for ethanol or soya beans/canola for bio diesel is NO different than using grass to feed horses (which would then do work). Like everything else in this world, it"s a cycle, our Grandfathers farmed with horses, and although small, managed to feed the world as it was then, but they grew hay and oats for the horses. Today we grow corn and soya beans to feed the world and feed our tractors/trucks etc. No difference at all. The only thing that will change any of this is the invention of a cheap, reliable and easily accessible renewable power source... although you could argue that soya beans already are... just my 2cents
 
Darned shame too because I really want to like the guy. Not as confrontational as tlak. Seems to be a smart guy,but somewhere along the way he's gotten obsessed with conspiracy theories and something he calls neocons,whatever that is. I've asked him and didn't get an answer. It's sad that it's all turned what was probably the common sense area of his brain in to mush.
I know a guy here personally who's life is just as big a waste,but he's on the far opposite end of the political spectrum. The guy's so far out there that people head the other way as soon as they see him coming. Nice guy otherwise. Just a shame what happens to peoples minds.
 
Thats funny! I would say nnalert.We are probably both right. If I say, then ,this will all go poof.Its not even hard to find.No its not a conspiracy theory,its the truth.
It sure is hard to get people to THINK.
 
Thanks for the kind words.Ill post something here before long.It wont stay up long so watch for it. What I'm going to put up is really not that hard to understand. Ill put it in a separate post so it wont crash this one.

I would like you a lot better if you wouldn't try and make like I'm crazy or something.I am mechanic,not a geek or a politician,or somebody that lies to people. I just know better than this good conservative crap,it was always a lie.

Both sides will lie to you.Ill put up something and you will have to dig,but you will find out the truth if you look.It will also make you mad.But that's just how it is.Our country is in serious danger as is the whole world.There are over a billion people at risk of starving to death from these same people greed.
 
Gary, over the years you have been quite level-headed in these ethanol discussions despite the fact that you are a seller of corn. I for one would like to commend you on that. These discussions have had a surplus of opinions and a shortage of facts. You seem to come forward with more facts than opinions. That said, could you give me some facts as to corn cost in the production of ethanol? At $6.00 per bushel, even the weakest mind can see that corn cost is triple what is was ahile back. Thanks Gary
 
I know you're a decent guy who works with his hands. That's why I want to like you,but every time I try to have a discussion with you,it eventually degrades in to "neocons" and conspiricy theories. We just can't ever seem to get over that hump once we hit it.
 
The demand for the DDGs gets stronger every day you cant just call for a load and its there tomorrow. Its being exported and the demand just keeps growing. Do you have any idea how many products are made from Corn would you beleive 600 and growing. Too many of you guys should get your info from places other than The New York Times .
 
I agree with you trad. farmer. I can't believe I'm saying this because as a farmer I have my hand out just like the rest. But I wish it would end.
 
Now that's more like it. A surgical delete of some of the responses without taking out the entire post. That's the way it should be,even if some of those deleted were mine. That whole string of them was out of line anyway.
No,that's not sarcasm.
 
The latest report from USDA says that modern Ethanol plants produce 2.3 btu of energy in the form of Ethanol, for every 1 BTU of fossil fuel input.
 
"Then You have the USDA which sends subsidy payments to people living in housing divisions, & when they send the checks back saying they dont farm are told to keep it anyway; What a travisty that is by itself"


I call BS on that one.
 
Curious, so I looked and there was a chart comparing DDG and Corn. Something has to make up for the missing starch.
Table 1. Average composition of corn grain and corn distillers grains with solubles1
.....Corn grain ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Distillers grains
Crude protein, % 9.4 ..............30
Neutral detergent fiber, % 9.5 ,,,,40
Starch, % 70........................4
Crude fat, % 4.2...................12
Phosphorus, % 0.3 ..................0.8
1 Nutrient composition on a DM basis. Data taken from several sources published since 2000.
 
Yes but: If I am not mistaken, the oil producers/industry get a gov. subsidy. I think I heard it on cnn or fox news.
 
If no mandates than the oil companies wouldn't use any ethanol. Would mean more oil would be sold and higher oil company profits. Have you noticed the oil companies have fought the mandates at every step and have also filed lawsuits?
 
Add to that the fact that we're going to grow corn or something anyway. Better it ends up as fuel than sitting in government storage at tax payers expense.
 
You don't need the New York Times to figuer this one out. A little bit of thermo-dynamics is about all that's required....
It will hit the wall eventually.

Rod
 
That sounds like a good idea! That would also wipe out food stamps and school lunches as they are paid outta the same fund that farm subsidies are paid outta.
 
Me too. First off,they don't send checks,it's direct deposit. And if anybody like that recieves support from USDA,it's called Food Stamps.
 
One thing about ethanol there is no armed troops sent to gaurd a corn field.When all the subsidys for the oil companies are taken off,then yes end the blenders credit should be taken off. But then the oil companies should be paying for their own way also.With the DDG's there is always a line waiting for them at the plants & railcars are loaded out every day,so if there is no value to them alot of feeders are wasting alot of money on worthless feed.I have not seen a feeder of cattle or hogs put somthing in the ration that had no benifit to the animal or their margins.
 
guess you don't get it. Food prices as you pointed out do not go up only from input costs but the perception that they do is there. gov't budget is what really kills ethanol...
 
You got to remember the govt. was making LDP payments to the farmers cause the prices were to low. That was costing us more than what the govt. is spending on subsidizing the ethanol industry and the farmer are enjoying much better returns on their crops.
 
Don't know why farmers are worried about ETH.Too many reasons for the government to not touch it. Balance of trade is one of the big ones.Don't have time to list the rest right now. Rumor has it that Obammy is going to open up our oil reserve.What does that tell you? Senior Citizen says the first place to watch corn use decline is export numbers and so far no one has backed away from the feed trough.
 
Hey I"m just saying it the way I understood it, which wasn"t well. The whole ethanol thing kinda pis$es me off so I read ablout half the article and got sick of it.
 
If that is true...and I have no reason not to believe you, then demand is higher than supply. That would mean the market would support higher prices. Which in turn is another argument for dropping the subsidy.
 
Its not just farmers.The people who run the government are just puppets of the crooks.The crooks don't want anybody to get ahead.I put up who was doing it.I see its already gone. I see they took my posts out of this thread.
Look you all go on thinking whatever you think,but it is happening and it is who I said it is and it is because they are trying to rule the world.There are less people using oil in the USA,we aren't running out,and if we made ethanol out of sugar cane we would be able to make enough that we wouldn't need to use oil for gasoline.
I think you all think you are real important because you are farmers,well not to the crooks.If it wasn't for farmers pushing it,there wouldn't be any ethanol plants.I guess some good politicians helped in the past,but more and more they just aren't there.As the crooks buy more of them off,the worse the whole country gets.Just like the ones who try and discredit ethanol.They don't even know they are spreading propaganda for the crooks.Brazil has all ethanol and they did it by making it out of sugar cane.You can make 7 times more ethanol from sugar cane and cut one step out of the process.Don't believe the crooks.If we were serious about using ethanol we could do it and just use our own oil.
Don't be fools.If Brazil can do it,we can too.Just like somebody said about a corn field,you don't have soldiers guarding a sugar cane field either.
 
Be sure to check out the part where it talks about Brazils better efficiency using sugar cane for Ethanol. We could do that here too. I f we used sugar cane instead of corn we could make 7 times more Ethanol.That still wouldn't replace gasoline,but it would almost do it.It would get us to where we wouldn't need to import any oil.
There are other,better places to look stuff up than Wikipedia,but this gives you an idea.What you need to look up is how much better sugar cane and other stuff is than corn.You could use a corn ethanol plant to make ethanol with sugar cane. There is a certain amount of sugar cane that they waste every year,that will work to make ethanol with too.I think load a train up with sugar cane,like they do coal now and ship it to ethanol plants up north,or if we can grow some fields of sugar cane around ethanol plants,and even if you don't get a double crop like in Brazil,if you get 7 times as much alcohol it would pay to do it.
Ethanol fuel Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
 
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