I have insurance for my mowing and discing business which covers me. If I hire someone part time, and he gets hurt I could be paying a big doctor bill. I just use part time help to operate a string trimmer in rocky areas. Maybe I'm starting to worry too much as I get older. I've been lucky so far. I'm sure some of you use part time help. Do any of you worry about this? Is workers comp expensive? How do you go about getting it? Stan
- Thread starter 37 chief
- Start date
Workers Comp ins. is real expensive.
If you pay the guy ca$h instead of a check then there is no real proof that he works for you.
I wouldnt hire anyone to do anything unless a string trimmer like you said or maybe a push mower. BE SURE THEY WEAR SAFETY GLASSES. !!!!!
If you pay the guy ca$h instead of a check then there is no real proof that he works for you.
I wouldnt hire anyone to do anything unless a string trimmer like you said or maybe a push mower. BE SURE THEY WEAR SAFETY GLASSES. !!!!!
Workers Comp ins. is real expensive.
If you pay the guy ca$h instead of a check then there is no real proof that he works for you.
I wouldnt hire anyone to do anything unless a string trimmer like you said or maybe a push mower. BE SURE THEY WEAR SAFETY GLASSES. !!!!!
If you pay the guy ca$h instead of a check then there is no real proof that he works for you.
I wouldnt hire anyone to do anything unless a string trimmer like you said or maybe a push mower. BE SURE THEY WEAR SAFETY GLASSES. !!!!!
We are self insured. I paid out over $200,000 in claims last year. I have 22 employees. Most of that was a kid who forgot to put a pin back in a trailer jack (the kind that flips horizontal when not in use. Rolled forward and the tongue landed on his foot, breaking a couple of bones. He was going to be fired the next morning for saying he completed a job but he bever even went to the site, he went home and took a nap!
Tom in TN
Well-known Member
- Location
- Southern Middle Tennessee
Chief,
As everyone else said, Worker's Compensation Insurance is expensive. To make matters worse, the actual premium is based on the type of work that the covered person is doing, so your guy working outside, using power equipment, will be more than a secretary who never leaves the office.
Good luck with your decision.
Tom in TN
As everyone else said, Worker's Compensation Insurance is expensive. To make matters worse, the actual premium is based on the type of work that the covered person is doing, so your guy working outside, using power equipment, will be more than a secretary who never leaves the office.
Good luck with your decision.
Tom in TN
Workmans comp. has differint rates for each job classifcation. The amount you pay is a percentage of the employee"s wages. If you hire someone and they get hurt and you don"t have coverage they can and will take everything. Rates are normaly between 6-12 percent based on risk assesment. I am selfemployed and have two companys and a farm. Get workmans comp. its not worth the risk.
I make sure that they are all contract labor. For example, if someone is part time farm help they have their own hay helping business. My insurance covers part time help if they work less then 30 days a year. IGary had a reply about this last year when I posted a question about it and I got my farm insurance set up after his.
I own a roofing company and my rate is 34%, and that is with 0 claims and 3 years in business clean. I have worked for contractors that only use sub contractors since they have had accidents and there rate would be 150% for employed roofers. Proper procedure for using 1099 workers/subs is to get insurance certificates from their comp and liability insurance company, if not your still liable for claims.
Cockshutt Mike
Member
When I had my business in Ohio I used contract labor and I found out when I checked into it with workers comp that if they did not carry there own workers comp I was responsable.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
That sounds illegal
What my insurance agent told me was that my farm owners covers up to 5000 in medical payments. After that liability would take over if I'm liable for the injury or damages. I dont have a lot of employees, rarely more than 1 or 2 at any one time and most of them are clearly independent contractors (truck drivers with their own trucks, people hired flat rate by the job, etc). So far I've only ever had 2 claims, guy got kicked in the chest by a calf and another guy had a tree limb smack him in the face. Each state has its own rules as to who and at what level they have to have w.c. ins. Here farms with less that a certain number of employees are exempt. I got really worried about needing it and talked to my ins agent. Was fully prepared to pay what it cost. Several million dollars in umbrella liability coverage cost less than basic w.c. insurance and its a nightmare of paperwork since I dont have anyone as a regular full time employee.
I'm self employed. I work 98% of the time by myself. I also hire a person to care for my mother about 10 hrs per week. The law in PA states that I must have workmens comp. as she is not a sub-contractor. My insurance company would not write me a policy as everything was the minimums, so the State Workmens compensation fund did it. My premium is $855 for 2011. The main classification is Landscape contractor which somehow includes home care AND any one I may hire as day labor. Yes, it is a burden but if someone gets hurt on the job I am covered. Have thought about not having it but, quite frankly,If someone got injured seriously enough that it permanently affected their earning ability friend or not they could possibly be forced to have me reimburse them....I am not willing to go there! There are plenty around here that don't follow these guidelines but I am also not willing to put my self in a position where where I might be challenged to lie. BTDT, not goin again.
My 2 cents,
Andy
My 2 cents,
Andy
Bob Bancroft
Well-known Member
- Location
- Aurora NY
I used to haul feed for a local mill(with my truck) contractually. When, after several years of this, things started going south for them, and they were looking for excuses to squeeze people out, the young manager asked for my insurance certificate. I didn't know what he was talking about. The mill owner finally told me they were required to carry work. comp. ins. on contract haulers.
Is this an example of what you are saying? Is it even possible to make a claim in such a situation?
Is this an example of what you are saying? Is it even possible to make a claim in such a situation?
It depends on which state you are in. In Ohio, the state runs W Comp with several options. Check on your state"s website or talk to your insurance agent about your specific needs. If still in doubt, spend an hour with an attorney that practices labor law.
You have lots of advice in this thread, some good, some not good.
Several below mentioned setting a worker up as a subcontractor. It can be done, but if not done exactly to the IRS standards, it will come back to haunt you in the form of back taxes for FICA/ Medicare and FIT withholding. Since these were not paid on time, you will get penalties, interest and possibly assessments and they will want the money and they have the means to get it. When the IRS is through, you will get to answer at the state level for Unemployment/ W Comp, and state tax withholding. More penalties and interest. The IRS is really cracking down on this. I doubt that someone you hire for occasional use will fall under the subcontractor category. Check the IRS site for the specific rules.
A part timer that doesn"t fully understand and meet the sub contractor requirements will be upset when they get a 1099 in January and realize they will have to pay both halves of the FICA/ Medicare taxes. If they get hurt and find out they are not covered under W Comp, you will probably be hearing from a lawyer and the results could be expensive.
Workers Comp seems expensive when you are paying, but it is dirt cheap if you ever have a big claim. Are you willing to gamble everything you own?
I"ve been in business over 25 years and I"ve seen many come and go trying to circumvent the system. Everyone of them got caught sooner or later. The downfall always started with an injury that should have been covered under W Comp or when they filed for unemployment.
You have lots of advice in this thread, some good, some not good.
Several below mentioned setting a worker up as a subcontractor. It can be done, but if not done exactly to the IRS standards, it will come back to haunt you in the form of back taxes for FICA/ Medicare and FIT withholding. Since these were not paid on time, you will get penalties, interest and possibly assessments and they will want the money and they have the means to get it. When the IRS is through, you will get to answer at the state level for Unemployment/ W Comp, and state tax withholding. More penalties and interest. The IRS is really cracking down on this. I doubt that someone you hire for occasional use will fall under the subcontractor category. Check the IRS site for the specific rules.
A part timer that doesn"t fully understand and meet the sub contractor requirements will be upset when they get a 1099 in January and realize they will have to pay both halves of the FICA/ Medicare taxes. If they get hurt and find out they are not covered under W Comp, you will probably be hearing from a lawyer and the results could be expensive.
Workers Comp seems expensive when you are paying, but it is dirt cheap if you ever have a big claim. Are you willing to gamble everything you own?
I"ve been in business over 25 years and I"ve seen many come and go trying to circumvent the system. Everyone of them got caught sooner or later. The downfall always started with an injury that should have been covered under W Comp or when they filed for unemployment.
Bob, it is possible to make claims in such a situation. Again, the requirements vary from state to state.
Another eye opener for homeowners having work done around their homes, if a supposed contractor doesn't have W Comp, the homeowner then becomes the "general contractor" and must carry W Comp. By the time the homeowner finds out, an accident has occurred, and things get ugly quickly. If you are lucky, your homeowners insurance may cover you and then go after the contractor. When someone that is a supposed contractor works around your home, require them to give you a copy of their current Certificate of Workers Comp and verify their liability insurance. A good contractor will provide them with the contract documents.
Another eye opener for homeowners having work done around their homes, if a supposed contractor doesn't have W Comp, the homeowner then becomes the "general contractor" and must carry W Comp. By the time the homeowner finds out, an accident has occurred, and things get ugly quickly. If you are lucky, your homeowners insurance may cover you and then go after the contractor. When someone that is a supposed contractor works around your home, require them to give you a copy of their current Certificate of Workers Comp and verify their liability insurance. A good contractor will provide them with the contract documents.
Adirondack case guy
Well-known Member
Germ; Great advise, and well stated. This independent contractor issue has become a real issue here in NY. Also OSHA is cracking down on small contractors and employers. In the current sue happy enviroment, every busness needs to do everything by the book. If someone doesn't believe this, just observe the overwhelming lawyer adds on TV lately.
oliver power
Member
Yes, great advice from Germ. I'm in NY. For years, many people got away with playing the sub-contractor game. It's a different world today. Comp is for employee's. Don't be caught without it. Do it all by the book. I use PAYCHEX. Let them do all the paperwork.
When I was a kid I used to cut the grass for all the old people on my parents street. I was paid in cash. That was in the 1980s. No comp insurance, no nothing.
If you look on any US treasury note it says: This note is legal tender for all debts, public and private. Think about all the kids that do chores for neighbors and the like?
If you look on any US treasury note it says: This note is legal tender for all debts, public and private. Think about all the kids that do chores for neighbors and the like?
Here in NY I have to have liability insurance, in case I hurt someone, or damage someones property, and if you have a employee on the books you have to have workers comp, in case the employee gets hurt. I dont know off hand how much the workers comp is maybe $900.00 some odd dollars. All my policys, come to about $5000.00 a year, Home owners, liaibilty, comp and 4 trucks.
Paying cash is completely legal, but,
"If you pay the guy ca$h instead of a check then there is no real proof that he works for you."
isn't. The government will probably think that it's fraud. Pay cash, keep the needed records, and in the long run it's going to keep you out of trouble. The cost of W Comp is a business cost and should be figured into the pricing of services. It should not cost 37 Chief out his own pocket, the cost would be recovered in the price he gives to his customer.
This isn't the 80's and $160 per calender quarter is the threshold in Ohio. Kids doing chores for a neighbor doesn't get a person off the hook for paying W Comp. The kid gets hurt, goes to the doctor, the doctor asked how it happened, and the homeowner could be in trouble.
"If you pay the guy ca$h instead of a check then there is no real proof that he works for you."
isn't. The government will probably think that it's fraud. Pay cash, keep the needed records, and in the long run it's going to keep you out of trouble. The cost of W Comp is a business cost and should be figured into the pricing of services. It should not cost 37 Chief out his own pocket, the cost would be recovered in the price he gives to his customer.
This isn't the 80's and $160 per calender quarter is the threshold in Ohio. Kids doing chores for a neighbor doesn't get a person off the hook for paying W Comp. The kid gets hurt, goes to the doctor, the doctor asked how it happened, and the homeowner could be in trouble.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
Unless he is a good friend and even then, better strongly consider workers comp. Also somewhat depends on what you are protecting, "can't get blood out of a turnip", but you can still lose the little you might have.
Check with your state ins. offices for an explanation as laws vary by state. Depending on how your business is set up, your personal assets may be at risk if worker gets injured and you lack coverage.
Many exceptions/rules regarding family members, etc. Premiums/rates are determined by type of work and based on payroll. If you need coverage for help, not worth risk of not having insurance.
See a reliable ins. agent who deals with commercial lines coverages (if you need policy). Independent agent can shop between many companies and programs.
Many exceptions/rules regarding family members, etc. Premiums/rates are determined by type of work and based on payroll. If you need coverage for help, not worth risk of not having insurance.
See a reliable ins. agent who deals with commercial lines coverages (if you need policy). Independent agent can shop between many companies and programs.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
They don't need proof, beyond a reasonable doubt is only required for criminal matters. This would be a civil matter, the prepondence of evidence (50.00001%), or in some places clear and convincing. You are going to have to explain how it became that the guy was hurt working on your project, yet he wasn't working for you. Further, your bank drafts for cash will line up nicely with what he claims you paid him. You get to explain that also. They will find a platoon of people saying that he worked for you. No 5th amendment rights in a civil trial, your family members can be called to testify, as can be your business associates, the mechanic, fuel supply guy, your banker, the insurance guy you asked about a WC policy, ect. True, it is circumstantial evidence, but circumstantial evidence has sent many convicted felons to the gallows/gas chamber/firing squad, still does. Although I may shut up, I would never lie in court, would you ? If so you may be paying your worker damages and facing purgery charges. Besides, what is wrong with being responsable for your actions ?
Allen Goodman
Member
Private Contractors!!!! Send me an e-mail and I'll send you the total packet. No worries about Workman's Comp. I don't pay it. Been in business for 11 years. IRS/State aprroved. E-mail: [email protected]
Allen Goodman
Member
Hey Gun Guru. I notice that you're addressed as Chief. Warrant Officer? I'm called Chief (CW3 U.S Army)still addressed today by my employees who have military service. Been retired (can't believe it, time flies) for 18 years now.
You do not have to get it, but if you do not have a current WC policy you are NOT coming on my property!
Landowner would have to be nuts to let a "contractor" on his place without the coverage as then the cost can slide to the landowner!
An old employer did not check well enough and ended up paying $85,000 for an injury to a contractor's employee. The contractor did not have coverage or assets.
Landowner would have to be nuts to let a "contractor" on his place without the coverage as then the cost can slide to the landowner!
An old employer did not check well enough and ended up paying $85,000 for an injury to a contractor's employee. The contractor did not have coverage or assets.
If you hire any one you need Workman"s comp. If that person running that weed eater is hurt they will be covered by Workman"s comp. If you don"t have a policy than you are liable for the full amount.
This happened to my Brother-in-law. He lives in Ohio. He had worked real hard and had a 250 acre farm paid for. He was raising tobacco and cattle. Making a good income. He hire a young local man to help mow hay. He was using a IH 504 gas tractor. The young man filled the gas tank from my BIL"s under ground tank at lunch. Then he went back to mowing hay after lunch. The gas expanded and boiled over out the filler cap on the gas tank. As soon as it hit the ignition system it lit on fire. You remember how you set down and in on those old IH utility tractor. That young man was covered with burning gas. He was burnt real bad over 80 percent of his body. He was luck that he was by a pond and he ran into the water. A passer by saw it happen and went and got the life squad for him. He lived, He under went years of treatment and is still very limited in what he can do.
My BIL did not have worker"s comp. The state paid all of the bills including permanent disability for the young man. My BIL was/is liable for 2.2 million dollars of health care and disability payments. He had to sell everything he had. He still pays a percentage of any wages he gets to the state. PLUS this debt can not be written off during any bankruptcy proceedings.
What did he save. The state minim premium at that time was $150 per year on a farm. Then it was 13 percent of wage after that. So he saved a few hundred bucks to become 2.2 million dollar in debt.
I have a policy now and I always have had. It does not cost me much over five hundred dollars each year.
This happened to my Brother-in-law. He lives in Ohio. He had worked real hard and had a 250 acre farm paid for. He was raising tobacco and cattle. Making a good income. He hire a young local man to help mow hay. He was using a IH 504 gas tractor. The young man filled the gas tank from my BIL"s under ground tank at lunch. Then he went back to mowing hay after lunch. The gas expanded and boiled over out the filler cap on the gas tank. As soon as it hit the ignition system it lit on fire. You remember how you set down and in on those old IH utility tractor. That young man was covered with burning gas. He was burnt real bad over 80 percent of his body. He was luck that he was by a pond and he ran into the water. A passer by saw it happen and went and got the life squad for him. He lived, He under went years of treatment and is still very limited in what he can do.
My BIL did not have worker"s comp. The state paid all of the bills including permanent disability for the young man. My BIL was/is liable for 2.2 million dollars of health care and disability payments. He had to sell everything he had. He still pays a percentage of any wages he gets to the state. PLUS this debt can not be written off during any bankruptcy proceedings.
What did he save. The state minim premium at that time was $150 per year on a farm. Then it was 13 percent of wage after that. So he saved a few hundred bucks to become 2.2 million dollar in debt.
I have a policy now and I always have had. It does not cost me much over five hundred dollars each year.
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