Mental ability waning. Reason I ask is did someone tell me or post that flat leaf springs will not give much traction in snow and ice conditions. Could well arched springs help at all? Usual situation is this. We have a lot of snow and ice around property. Only single drive. Temptation is always too great and I will pull off drive somewhere to park. Usually on gravel with snow and ice. F150 will not move an inch after sitting a while. This is van with auto trans and fair amount of ballast. Cannot be rocked at all. I will try the bleach thing later tonight. Anybody have first hand experience with something like this. I have brand new wrangler tires. This is not an only vehicle, but I kinda like it. Again, thanks a million because you have probably posted about this but brain is frozen tonight. I may have to spring for bigger drive. Had two pickups with this problem, but also 2 pickups that would go anywhere. Dave
- Thread starter barn E
- Start date
rustyfarmall
Well-known Member
The springs have nothing to do with it.
Ken Macfarlane
Well-known Member
Correct, and don't ruin your tires with bleach.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
I think you need a set of Brigstone Blizzack snow tires. The are the best thing, next to chains, for an icy snowy road.
Generally, leaf springs give worse traction than coil springs, unless the leafs are very light. A truck with broken springs is apt to get better traction then before it was broken.
Traction relies on equal weight distribution to all the drive wheels. A truck with very hard springs doesn't do that well unless on flat ground.
Many years ago, when Ford trucks had leafs, and Chevys had coils - the Chevys got much better traction - but were lousy at carrying loads.
Seems most modern trucks have progressive leafs, and when not loaded ARE soft, and do a much better job of equalizing tractor, then some older rock-hard-all-the-time setups.
Traction relies on equal weight distribution to all the drive wheels. A truck with very hard springs doesn't do that well unless on flat ground.
Many years ago, when Ford trucks had leafs, and Chevys had coils - the Chevys got much better traction - but were lousy at carrying loads.
Seems most modern trucks have progressive leafs, and when not loaded ARE soft, and do a much better job of equalizing tractor, then some older rock-hard-all-the-time setups.
Cheesehead Fred
Member
Just my 2cents - Worse pickup I ever had came with 8ply "camper special" tires with street tread. Could get stuck in 3 snowflakes when empty. Switched out to taller, narrower snow tread, was much better. Better yet with 3 tubes of sand in the back.
Seems you are arguing against your own argument. Hard srpings and uneven ground means less weight on some tires and more on others.
I already did explain it once. It has to do with equal weight distribution on all the drive wheels. A truck with hard springs on uneven ground does a lousy job of keeping weight equal per tire. In fact, if stiff enough, on uneven ground sometimes a truck (or trailer) wheel will come off the ground or barely touch. Add that to a truck with an open-differential, and hard springs make a big difference (in giving poor traction).
I'll add that it doesn't have to be leaf springs. Same can apply to trucks or cars with torsion bars adjusted too hard.
Sounds like you never drove same-size rear-wheel cars or trucks - with both setups? A prime example was the Dodge Dart (with leafs) compared to a Chevy Chevelle (with coils). Night and day difference in traction on rough roads.
I ruined empty-traction on many trucks when I beefed them up with rock-hard springs - instead of buying premade progress-rate springs that work much better.
I already did explain it once. It has to do with equal weight distribution on all the drive wheels. A truck with hard springs on uneven ground does a lousy job of keeping weight equal per tire. In fact, if stiff enough, on uneven ground sometimes a truck (or trailer) wheel will come off the ground or barely touch. Add that to a truck with an open-differential, and hard springs make a big difference (in giving poor traction).
I'll add that it doesn't have to be leaf springs. Same can apply to trucks or cars with torsion bars adjusted too hard.
Sounds like you never drove same-size rear-wheel cars or trucks - with both setups? A prime example was the Dodge Dart (with leafs) compared to a Chevy Chevelle (with coils). Night and day difference in traction on rough roads.
I ruined empty-traction on many trucks when I beefed them up with rock-hard springs - instead of buying premade progress-rate springs that work much better.
Aaron Ford
Well-known Member
Would worn shocks/struts cause a traction problem? I kinda need to know cause my car is suddenly helpless. New tires may have been the cause, but WOW is it useless in the snow...
New tires were Goodyear Assurance Tripletread with a snow rating, FWIW.
Aaron
New tires were Goodyear Assurance Tripletread with a snow rating, FWIW.
Aaron
No. Flat leaf springs have nothing to do with traction. I think its more weight and tires. My f250 4x4 diesel wont hardly move on wet grass, light snow or wet mud, and I added springs and none are flat. With sides on the truck box and a dump hoist, its still light in the rear. Put it in 4x4 or have a load in it and its a different truck.
Herm Johnson
New User
I have been sour on goodyear tires for a number of years after having numerous problems with them. The wifes minivan needed new tires last year and the size it takes leaves for limited manufactures and choices I finally broke down and decided to give goodyear a try once more and had the triple treads put on and what a friggin mistake the traction is decent but the road noise is almost unbearable hopefully I can get enough money saved up to replace them this spring I would not wish these pieces of crap on my worst enemy
MarkB_MI
Well-known Member
- Location
- Motown USA
Two suggestions:
1. Make sure none of your brakes are dragging.
2. For somewhere between 500 and 1000 dollars you can have a posi unit installed in the rear end. If you drive much on snow and ice it might be money well spent.
1. Make sure none of your brakes are dragging.
2. For somewhere between 500 and 1000 dollars you can have a posi unit installed in the rear end. If you drive much on snow and ice it might be money well spent.
showcrop
Well-known Member
You don't say how much you had driven before this happened, but as WGWKy said, if your tires were warm and melted snow, and as you said, it sat for awhile, you then have ice under those tires. with the engine weight up front you will need a lot on the back to counteract the drag on the discs. I used to drive a triaxle dump truck with a Hendrickson suspension. Some others had Chalmers, some had leaf springs, and some had air bags. In a poor traction situation like live sand, and no load, the air bag with it's "give" as JD is talking about would always get better traction.
my 2 cents the springs from a dead stop don't make 1 bit of difference or in the rare event they do it is minimal. For snow and ice weight and traction are the main considerations. Also when parking, instead of throwing it in park where you stop try stopping and then backing up a foot then throw it in park as this will give you a runway to start off with. At work I drive a Dodge van with leaf springs and the necessary electrical supplies such as wire so I have some ballast and it will go through anything I want to try, but steering is my issue as the wheels will always try to follow the easiest path.
Janicholson
Well-known Member
Put a sand box near the drive and a spade full laid out in front of each will do it. Springs just hold the tires down, they have no tactical advantage for slow movement on flat ground. Jim
Thanks for shaking my brain. Some of these ideas are coming back and some are new. Two cups of bleach did work like magic but if it destroys tires, forget that. Do have tractors, but sorta embarassing. Neighbors know I screwed up again. Merry CHRISTMAS to all my good tractor friends and thanks again. Dave
They call it camelback because instead of the ends mounting to the frame and the axle to the center, the center mounts to a pivot on the frame and the axles to the ends of the spring. It's humped like a camel's back. Works real well in adverse conditions. Probably the best in adverse conditions, better than walking beams for certain.
How about the two guys that died and went to heaven. There was a long line of people that God and St. Peter were trying to get into heaven. Finally God told St Peter to tell them last two guys to go back to earth for a few days and they can be anything they went to be. One said I want to be a eagle, the other said I want to be a stud. Few days later God told St. Peter to go get them. He said one will be easy to find cause he will be flying over the Rockies, the other guy will be harder to find because he is in a car tire up in Minnesota.
Seems you don't know what you're talking about in regard to vehicle weights.
Besides, it's about weight per drive-wheel versus how much total weight has to be moved. Not just weight alone.
1965 2 door Chevelle weighs 2800 lbs.
1965 2 door Dodge Dart weighs 2850 lbs.
1965 2 door Pylmouth Valiant weighs 2740 lbs.
Besides, it's about weight per drive-wheel versus how much total weight has to be moved. Not just weight alone.
1965 2 door Chevelle weighs 2800 lbs.
1965 2 door Dodge Dart weighs 2850 lbs.
1965 2 door Pylmouth Valiant weighs 2740 lbs.
Seems to me #1 you do not understand basic pyhsics, and #2 never beefed up a set of leafs springs- thus adding weight - and got worse traction when done.
With your reasoning - take the worst-case scenario. Take a truck with springs so hard they do not flex at all when not loaded. Add to that a HD frame that does not flex. Then drive over rough uneven ground. Now - tell me - since you say it make "no difference" - how weight will be distributed evenly to all drive wheels when a few may not even be touching the ground. And a standard open differential that will send most of the drive-power to the wheel with the least traction - i.e. the once barely touching the ground. What happens?
I find some of the "makes no difference" comments here a little baffling. I'll have to assume that some of you guys never worked on leaf springs, drove on icy rough roads, and/or never tried out different setups on the same roads.
Back when 2WD Chevy pickups had rear coil springs, and GMC and Ford 2WD pickups had leaf springs - the better traction with the Chevys was amazing. But, they were useless for carrying heavy loads.
1967-72 Chevy trucks were available with standard rear trailing-arm coil springs and had much better traction - then if you special ordered the same truck with HD leaf-spring package. GMC was the opposite and came standard with leafs and coils were the option. Anybody who drove those trucks in the woods or bad roads knew the big difference in traction between the two setups.
And anybody that ever drove a leaf-spring truck with brokeh/worn out springs also should of noticed better traction.
And, I'll say one more time. Modern (and/or new) leaf springs are usually progessive rate and allow more un-loaded flex, then a non-progressive, or built-up set of leafs. Back 20-30 years ago, it was a common practice to beef up leaf-spring assemblies by adding many leafs - which made traction a lot worse.
Note also, you can stick a set of air-bags in coil springs - make them rock hard, and cause the same problem on eneven ground if your frame doesn't flex a lot.
Did you ever pull a dual axle trailer on rough ground and notice a wheel in the air not even touching? Or, does that "never happen" also. The same physics applie to a pickup truck, except on the truck the axles are further apart and are designed to move more -unless somebody screws them up.
With your reasoning - take the worst-case scenario. Take a truck with springs so hard they do not flex at all when not loaded. Add to that a HD frame that does not flex. Then drive over rough uneven ground. Now - tell me - since you say it make "no difference" - how weight will be distributed evenly to all drive wheels when a few may not even be touching the ground. And a standard open differential that will send most of the drive-power to the wheel with the least traction - i.e. the once barely touching the ground. What happens?
I find some of the "makes no difference" comments here a little baffling. I'll have to assume that some of you guys never worked on leaf springs, drove on icy rough roads, and/or never tried out different setups on the same roads.
Back when 2WD Chevy pickups had rear coil springs, and GMC and Ford 2WD pickups had leaf springs - the better traction with the Chevys was amazing. But, they were useless for carrying heavy loads.
1967-72 Chevy trucks were available with standard rear trailing-arm coil springs and had much better traction - then if you special ordered the same truck with HD leaf-spring package. GMC was the opposite and came standard with leafs and coils were the option. Anybody who drove those trucks in the woods or bad roads knew the big difference in traction between the two setups.
And anybody that ever drove a leaf-spring truck with brokeh/worn out springs also should of noticed better traction.
And, I'll say one more time. Modern (and/or new) leaf springs are usually progessive rate and allow more un-loaded flex, then a non-progressive, or built-up set of leafs. Back 20-30 years ago, it was a common practice to beef up leaf-spring assemblies by adding many leafs - which made traction a lot worse.
Note also, you can stick a set of air-bags in coil springs - make them rock hard, and cause the same problem on eneven ground if your frame doesn't flex a lot.
Did you ever pull a dual axle trailer on rough ground and notice a wheel in the air not even touching? Or, does that "never happen" also. The same physics applie to a pickup truck, except on the truck the axles are further apart and are designed to move more -unless somebody screws them up.
Aaron Ford
Well-known Member
Yup you guessed it. Godyear Assurance Tripletreds. Dang!
Aaron
Aaron
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
After 22 years in the tire business I will again advise you to get rid of the allseason tires and get yourself a pair of Brigstone Blizack Snow tires. They are designed to go in ICE and SNOW. All season tires are good for wet roads but NOT for snow and ice covered roads. Last resort is tire chains.
Gotta agree with the guy in the tire business----TRY SOME REAL WINTER TIRES. I bought my first set of firestone winterfire/winterforce tires in '98 and have never gone back to regular tires. I don't know about a RWD vehicle but on FWD when they say use on all four wheels they mean it.
I am not the one that made general statements about vehicle weights (Chevelle and Dart). It was YOU, not me. Check your specs before you making sweeping statements, and don't blame me for errors you make.
60s-70s Darts varied in weight depending on options, just like all the other makes of cars and truck. 69 Dart GTS convertible weighs 3300 lbs. 74 Dart Special four-door weighs 3800 lbs., not that it matters. A 74 big- block 2 door Chevelle weighs 3800 lbs. Heaviest 74 Chevelle was a big-block four-door station wagon that weighed 4300 lbs.
60s-70s Darts varied in weight depending on options, just like all the other makes of cars and truck. 69 Dart GTS convertible weighs 3300 lbs. 74 Dart Special four-door weighs 3800 lbs., not that it matters. A 74 big- block 2 door Chevelle weighs 3800 lbs. Heaviest 74 Chevelle was a big-block four-door station wagon that weighed 4300 lbs.
I had 5 leafs in my truck and had them recurved and 2 new ones added per side, 4 extra leafs arent "that heavy" before I did this the truck would sag, the leafs were not competly flat, but tired. I haul a trailer and weight in the truck 5-6 days a week. After I had the spring work done, the truck was the same as far as getting stuck or spinning. I dident notice any difference, thats way I said I dident think it mattered if the leafs were flat or new. I dont remember in the top post, by the other guy, if he asked about coil springs, but your comparing 2 different things, leafs and coil springs. I also never drive my truck over such rough ground that I think any wheels came off the ground. But all I can say is my truck had both,flatter springs and recurved and new ones added, and I still spin getting out of the area where I dump the truck, or as I said snow or wet grass. If your gonna compare cars, (I think you mentioned a dart or something) and trucks with coil springs, Than I dont see were that even is relevent. Im comparing the same truck before and after. or with other trucks with leaf springs.
The guy asked about "re-arched" springs and traction. Then a few people made sweeping fits-all statements about how leaf springs having NOTHING to do with traction. That is rediculous.
Any sweeping "all or nothing" statement is usually wrong.
The statements I made were all qualified and explained. Not general or sweeping. Thus the reason why I gave some speciifcs.
Also, the wheels on a truck don't have to leave the ground. If you've got an open differential, and with hard springs get 40% weight on one wheel, and 60% on the other (on the same axle), you can get stuck. For a differential to get full power to both wheels, you need 50% on each side. That is more apt to happen with soft springs with lots of movement - regardless if leafs, coils, or torsion bars. But, leafs are the ones that are easy to beef up and get reworked.
Any sweeping "all or nothing" statement is usually wrong.
The statements I made were all qualified and explained. Not general or sweeping. Thus the reason why I gave some speciifcs.
Also, the wheels on a truck don't have to leave the ground. If you've got an open differential, and with hard springs get 40% weight on one wheel, and 60% on the other (on the same axle), you can get stuck. For a differential to get full power to both wheels, you need 50% on each side. That is more apt to happen with soft springs with lots of movement - regardless if leafs, coils, or torsion bars. But, leafs are the ones that are easy to beef up and get reworked.
Ya, they are easy to rework, On my f250, the helper the thickest bottom one broke off going down the thruway. I couldent believe it, I saw it in the mirror tumbling down the road, and some guy passed yelling metals flying off your truck. Broke off right at the axel. I took the truck to Albany Spring to add, replace and recurve them. That guy claimed Ford had problems with there springs breaking.?? Its a 2000, I dunno if its true or not.
I doubt Ford's springs differ from others. They buy from vendors like the rest. Now, Ford rear spring shackles seem to rust faster then Dodge or Chevy. I've broken a lot of leafs in all my trucks. Usually beause the springs were already tired, and I just kept adding in new leafs against old ones. Having missing rubber stops doesn't help either. My Chevy K5 Blazers crack leafs often.
We don't have any spring-shops near by. When there's a problem, it's common just to buy generic leaf stock, torch it to size, and add (and/or replace) leafs. Auto parts store in Oneonta has a u-bolt bending machine, all the center bolts and every size and thickness leaf stock I've ever needed.
We don't have any spring-shops near by. When there's a problem, it's common just to buy generic leaf stock, torch it to size, and add (and/or replace) leafs. Auto parts store in Oneonta has a u-bolt bending machine, all the center bolts and every size and thickness leaf stock I've ever needed.
I read quickly thru all of the posts and I agree that you "melted in" when you stopped with the tires warm.
I live in Southern Illinois, and I don't have the snow/ice experience that most of the posters have, but have you ever tried setting your emergency brake - not locked up, but still pretty tight? I've done that on wet grass, after numerous tries, and sometimes it will get me out of a slick spot. I guess it adds enough friction to over-ride the lack of traction to the slipping wheel. It's a last ditch effort, and not a means to travel to work - but has gotten me going several times.
Paul
I live in Southern Illinois, and I don't have the snow/ice experience that most of the posters have, but have you ever tried setting your emergency brake - not locked up, but still pretty tight? I've done that on wet grass, after numerous tries, and sometimes it will get me out of a slick spot. I guess it adds enough friction to over-ride the lack of traction to the slipping wheel. It's a last ditch effort, and not a means to travel to work - but has gotten me going several times.
Paul
That was an interesting string. I have to admit that at first I thought it may be an old wives tale that type of spring impacted traction.
After a static diagram or two it is clear there is a relationship between spring rate constants (stiffness) and keeping near equal weight on both wheels on uneven ground to keep one from spinning. Leaf springs are used in heaver automotive applications. Thus making it appear the leaf springs are bad for traction when actually a stiff heavy duty coil spring would not necessarily perform better.
Summary - flat ground it makes no diffence. If one rear wheel is on a hump and the spring is stiff, that wheel picks up much more weight which is what causes the spring to compress. Weight is no longer split 50/50 between wheels and spinning is more possible. If the spring is less stiff much less weight is used to compress the spring to compensate for the hump and weight split is closer to 50/50 thus more traction.
On paper does the spring rate constant make a diff - yes. In real life does it make enough impact to matter to you? You get to decide.
Now to go further out on that limb. The front springs change things as well even on 2wd. The front springs resist the vehicle tilting when one of the rear is on a hump. Softer front springs allow the vehicle to tilt more which in turn allows the back spring on the hump to have to compress less. Less difference between rear spring compressions means closer to 50/50 weight distribution for optimal traction. Soft long travel springs all the way around provide better starting traction all other things the same.
After a static diagram or two it is clear there is a relationship between spring rate constants (stiffness) and keeping near equal weight on both wheels on uneven ground to keep one from spinning. Leaf springs are used in heaver automotive applications. Thus making it appear the leaf springs are bad for traction when actually a stiff heavy duty coil spring would not necessarily perform better.
Summary - flat ground it makes no diffence. If one rear wheel is on a hump and the spring is stiff, that wheel picks up much more weight which is what causes the spring to compress. Weight is no longer split 50/50 between wheels and spinning is more possible. If the spring is less stiff much less weight is used to compress the spring to compensate for the hump and weight split is closer to 50/50 thus more traction.
On paper does the spring rate constant make a diff - yes. In real life does it make enough impact to matter to you? You get to decide.
Now to go further out on that limb. The front springs change things as well even on 2wd. The front springs resist the vehicle tilting when one of the rear is on a hump. Softer front springs allow the vehicle to tilt more which in turn allows the back spring on the hump to have to compress less. Less difference between rear spring compressions means closer to 50/50 weight distribution for optimal traction. Soft long travel springs all the way around provide better starting traction all other things the same.
Similar threads
We sell tractor parts! We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today.
Copyright © 1997-2024 Yesterday's Tractor Co.
All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.
Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters
Website Accessibility Policy