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John Deere - Lets worry about closer to home!

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Anonymous-0

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What I'm talking about is implements and combines. A guy with 600 acres can still make a real good living. Why can't John Deere build him a combine? I know of at least a few guys with 500 to 1000 acres that are thinking of getting their stuff custom harvested. These guys are serious combine buyers with serious 500 to 1000 acre operations. But they don't want to go larger because of the county roads and smaller fields. They want a 9400 sized machine and John Deere eliminated that a few years back. I think there would even be a market for a 9300 four row sized machine if they'd build one. These guys don't want to run old junk and are fed up with the lack of machines their size. They don't need to or want to harvest 100 acres a day. Basically John Deere is telling the US that in the future there is no viability for a guy with less than 1500 acres. The huge new machines have so many unneeded electronics that they won't be fixable like the machines from the 70' and 80's. Its a real slap in the face to a guy when John Deere says "we'll sell you implements, tractors and parts, but we're so sure you're on your way out that we aren't even thinking of making harvest equipment for you"
 
How often will a guy with 500 acres of crops be buying a NEW combine? If there was a PROFITABLE market for NEW small combines, there'd be several brands going after that market.

And why is it JUST John Deere's resonsibility? What about CNH? What about AGCO? I don't see them rolling out a line up of small, inexpensive combines. Reason being, they couldn't build and sell 'em cheap enough to create a demand either.

I'm a small timer too. But I understand why there isn't a host of NEW EXPENSIVE equipment catering to my needs. I flat CANNOT afford new equipment. If you somehow have found a way to justify buying new high dollar equipment with a small farm income, PLEASE, pass along you secret.
 
Agreed, but all manufacturers are heading the same direction as Deere if they are not already there. I think your comments are suitable for the whole industry. AGCO at one point was sourcing forage harvesters through Dion instead of Hesston and that I flat out do not get. Gleanor had talked about exactly what you are proposing but yet never got as far as producing to my knowledge.
 
I think the only statement Deere is making is, there is no profitability for them to make small machines. They are a world-wide company with a world-wide market. Those that need small equipment can find their own work-around and/or new source. If there was a big enough and steady demand, Deere would make them.

This happened years ago with crawlers, and is now happening with other types of equipment.

Nobody in the USA makes a small crawler anymore. You have to buy Chinese, Italian, Indian, etc. if you want one new in the USA.

To Deere's credit, they were buying back older smaller machines and doing factory rebuilds on them - in an effort to satisfy demand for smaller equipment. Certified Relife Program. May be all done now.
 
A local machinery dealer told me that someone will eventuallly someone will import a smaller (4/6) row combine and they'll sell like hotcakes. It won't come from AGCO, JD or CNH either, they are too short-sighted, and don't want to cater to a "niche" market. It may take a decade though, as there are still plenty of decent used smaller machines around.

A friend that farms about 400 acres in Kentucky told me that the local JD dealer told him that eventually everyone his size will be gone. The big guys will run them out of business. He said that this may be true, but you're still going to need a JD 4420/IH 1420 sized combine or smaller to get across bridges and get to the best ground in his neighborhood. There are alot of narrow bridges with a 10 ton weight limit or less around. He says he grits his teeth every time he crosses a certain one with his 4400. 6 ton weight limit and very narrow, you have to crawl across it. It's a dead end road, and the only way in/out to 1000+/- acres. No one could get one of these behemoth newer (or older) combines to the field if they wanted to.

AG
 
Thanks for your response. Reread the post and note that I was talking about ACTUAL GUYS I KNOW, with 500 to 1000 acres who seriously could and would purchase a medium sized combine. Lets call the 4-6 row machines medium because they are still huge compared to 30 years ago. 500 to 1000 acres is a serious Midwestern farm, with inputs alone now at roughly $360 corn and beans at $160. A rotation 800 acre guy would have $208,000 a year in inputs before equipment. You're saying a business of that size can't justify a new combine like it did 20 years ago? I'm not talking about "hobby" 100 acre guys like myself.
 
By the time they tool up and build it,and add all the federally mandated emissions,plus a cab with air,gps,yield monitors, etc ,they wont be too far off the price of a larger machine. Not alot of small acreage farmers are going to stroke a $170,000+ check for something that sits 11 months of the year,just won't pencil out,and the major companies know it. If there was an actual market(2-3000 machines/year)they would consider it, and I guarantee they have looked into it.
For 500 acres there are still alot of 6620's,4420's,and 9400's out there with 12-1500 hours thet will do the job,might take alittle fixing,but there won't be a $30,000+/year combine payment either.
 
Deere's company motto is "we're John Deere,we don't have to". Marry that up to the motto of the chain store dealers around here,"where else are you going to go",and you see why some of us have gone on down the road to other brand dealers.
 
Might be a niche market there,buying up Gleaner F3s,M2s and what not,doing a complete restoration and reselling them?
 
Check out raycomfg.com we make a small crawler here in the USA , but with many overseas sourced parts. The ones with a dozer blade didn't sell in real big numbers ,but the loader ones sell pretty good mostly for a niche market with forestry mowers for clearing right of ways.
 
It is a shame nobody is building equipment for a small to medium sized farmer. We farm 1600 acres and a fair bit of that is in town areas were considered average size farm. We still run some smaller equipment because of that and it is gettin harder to find smaller stuff. The truth of it is that farmers are getting larger and your having farmers partnering together farming more acres. All the equipment manufacturers are doin is following where the market is going and its goin bigger. At least where I live in Indiana there are not very many guys left that farm less than a 1000 acres. The ones that do either have another job or there wife has a good job. You really cant blame the equipment manufacturers for doing this. Say if deere sells 500 class 7 combines but only sale 10 class 6 then they have to decide if its profitable to make a small combine. On average a guy who farms less than 1000 acres isnt buying a new machine every two years like some one farmin several thousand. There maybe buyin one every 5-10. Thats just my observations around here wear I live.
 
You are exactly correct. It costs just as much to make that little one as the big one for everything except the actual steel and plastic in the machine, which is not that large of a percentage of total cost. IH built the 203, 105, 205, 615 and 1420 and some other smaller units. None of them ever went over well with buyers so, guess what, they quit building them.
 
There's no compact tractors made in N. America either. I think the reason nobody is making smaller combines is because small to medium size farmers can't afford them. To make a combine half the size probably still costs almost 3/4 of the price of a larger one. I know with some equipment a bunch of farmers will go together to buy it. Maybe that's what they need to do with a combine or find a decent older machine and fix it up like new? It's supposed to be about supply and demand but not not when the cost is too prohibitive. Dave
 
I can't say for sure about YOU, but when I respond to a post, I've ALREADY read it. I have NO problems with reading comprehension skills.

That said, And with the additional "information" in your second post, I'm sure your theory doesn't hold water. You're looking at 20 years ago as it relates to present day.

Your "numbers" are "perfect world" and not typical of long term averages. You CANNOT base a long term investment on one or two good years, when averages based on many years tell you that this year is more of an anomaly. That sort of thinking is why a lot of fundamentally good farmers got flushed out of the game in the '80's.

It amazes me when I hear people who make an average income think they can OUT THINK corporations that have made BILLIONS for well over a hundred years of business. Deere, for all the good things and all the BAD things anyone can say about them, have proven to be way ahead of the curve in operating a successful business. They aren't anyone's fools.... If there was a PROFITABLE market for small to mid-sized combines, and with their large scale production capabilities, Deere would be front and center with one. Do you really think they'd pass on an opportunity to capitalize on a market that they're well equipped to dominate? Sure, they MIGHT sell a few, but Deere isn't obligated to produce what would be a virtual monet pit for them and their shareholders, based on some "fuzzy math" by someone who obviously doesn't fully understand all that would be involved in marketing a limited production "niche market" combine.
 
I'd hazard a guess that mother Deere (and everyone else) still builds a small simple combine somewhere on this little planet... they just don't want to sell it here... You only have to go to South America to see what their farmers can get their hands on... all the machines we can't get because they're not hi-tech enough for us...

Agco just bought the remaining share of Laverda (an Italian combine manufacturer) but I doubt we'll see any in North America...
 
I agree with mf poor. Who with 500 acres can afford a new combine. The profit margin is just too slim on a acre of beans or corn. Now buying a old 6600 or something similar and throw 25000.00 at it, may be the only option for small farmers. If this is true some company will start rebuilding smaller equipment. And lets not forget the tax laws, this drives a lot of machinery purchases.
 
It's pure simple economics... I'd be willing to bet that the small combine would cost 3/4 as much or mabey as much as the larger machine and then have 1/2 or 1/3 the capacity. If a guy can't afford the larger machine then he's not going to afford the smaller one any better...
I'd also wonder what these guys are doing differently that they could afford a new machine on those kind of acres? Or is simply that they have cash saved up from a lifetime? Mabey when one actually sits down to look at operating costs on the new machine... the numbers won't add up.
Bigger is just the way of the world. Every year, everything costs more. You've either got to get more for what you sell or lower your costs and lowering costs through spreading equipment and labor over more acres is the most dependable path to follow... or run older equipment with extensive preventative maintenance.

I'd also argue the notion that small fields and old bridges prevent larger equipment from getting around. That's a state of mind. Excavators remove tree lines and make bigger fields at minimal cost... and old bridges have a habit of collapsing through the night... and get replaced with newer heavier bridges. I can't imagine 1000 acres not being worth building some kind of relevant crossing to access it.

Rod
 
The 1420's did well here for the number of combines sold in general back in the day. Problem with the 1420/1620 combines is they had a lot of parts that were unique to them versus the larger 1400/1600 series combines so the overhead to build was comparatively high. The older IH's just did not cut it and a lot of red guys here had Gleanor or Deere machines.
In regards to RR Lund's comment about the AC combines they were extremely popular up till the 1980's here with AC having a number of strong dealers here in NY. In the last decade and change a lot of those farmers have just turned the page on buying silver and either buying Deere or CaseIH so I don't know how well the recon combine business would do. AGCO was supposed to dust off the blue prints of the F3 and start building some updated version but I don't think it ever came to fruition.
In the end JDemaris and others are right that if there were sufficient economic motivation some manufacturer would respond to the demand. I do worry about used stuff for my size operation getting extremely scarce because some of those sizes have not been built in some time. I've heard for some time that any of the manufacturers that build 6 row corn planters have considered discontinuing that size (groan).
 
We are fairly fortunate with our Deere situation here. Still one single location dealer in the area and three other multi-location outfits to keep each other on their toes.
The nearest red and the nearest blue (both multi-location) dealers have really soured my attitude with their arrogance. Pretty far to drive to visit their competing same color dealer as an alternative although the red people are making me seriously consider it.
 
Just stop and THINK. IF you COULD buy a smaller combine you'd sure be lookin' $100,000 in the face. Take the interest and depreciation (say nothing about fuel, repairs, taxes, and insurance) and divide that by 600 acres. I can hire it done way cheaper than that. There IS NO money in combines or combining. The guys that tell you there is are either naive, lying, or both.
 
There is no secret. Except the lie that the big boys are making money. They are living on credit and letting expansion feed expansion. And the established farmer who is making a good living is living off the return on his investment which SHOULD be paying him a return in ADDITION to his wages.
 
How small? I checked out the Website but only found the C100 mulcher-crawlers. I didn't find any dozers or loaders.

A dealer near me sells new Landini crawler-dozers from Italy. Nice looking machines for something under 5 tons. Other then that, the only ones I've see are the Chinese Nortracs.

Not too long ago. Case had the 310,350, Deere a 1010 or 350, Allis Chalmers an H3, HD3, H4, HD4, IH a 500, T5, TD5, MF sold a foreign made small crawler in the USA, Oliver OC4s, etc. Now in the USA? None that I know of.
 
That's why Deere was slow to come out with a rotary combine. They were selling the heck out of conventionals just because they were Deere's so why hurry with a rotary! Jim
 
MFPoor
Reread my most recent post. You missed the point. The $208,000 is input cost, not profit. I never said that this would be a good year, although it may be. I am saying a business that runs a $200,000 operating loan is serious enough to buy new equipment. If we both farm then we know there is money in farming. Don't let anyone fool you about "poor" 800 acre farmers. As stated above they make the machines in South America and Europe. Why not offer them here?
 
If these small guys ( I'm one of them at 640 acres) can find a reliable custom harvester who has pride in his work, owning a combine and the support trucks/wagons/carts/augers should be out of the picture. Do the math. Jim
 
No slick, I didn't misread your post. It's VERY simply worded, and VERY simple MINDED. You can make up imaginary "numbers" until the cows come home, but that doesn't make it so... And your logic that YOU know more than the entire marketing management team @ Deere is just plain ridiculous. Now go make up some more numbers and come back again. It's a cold dreary day here and I need more to laugh at.
 
The only absolute is there are NO absolutes. Just like with ANY form of business, there are farmers, both large and small, who know how to play the game and make money. I know BTO's and hobby farmers both who manage to turn a pretty penny. Likewise, I know a few of each who are just stringing out the inevitable. They'll run out of credit, run out of equity, and run out of favors soon enough. Just like I won't say there's a clear cut secret to success, I sure wouldn't say there's no way a BTO can't be making money. And while we're at it, I know of quite a few smaller operations that use older equipment, keep overhead low, and still don't make enough to justify their risk.

It's so simple. There are good business operators and there are bad busines operators. The good ones find a way to make their model work. The bad ones find a way to make their model fail.
 
Legend has it that Deere had a proto-type built on the number 55 platform in the late 1950's. It was shelved because the New Generation tractors were behind schedule and over budget. By the time they re-focused on the rotary in the early 1970's they were clearly behind New Holland and later IH and were walking a minefield in terms of patent issues. During the 1970's the decision was made to pretty much follow design laid out in the hundred series in the 20 series with some upgrades to maximize profits. The 1980's (recession) came and development was tabled in favor of further upgrades which turned into the early 9000 series. I think the 55 series proto-type story is in Wayne Broehl's book about Deere.
 
I'm getting kind of pesky in this thread. You hit the nail on the head as far as the custom operator goes in terms of reliability and quality of work. I think you see a lot of guys here in the Northeast own their machines because that has been an issue. There can be a high degree of competitiveness between neighbors that sometimes stands in the way of a farmer doing what's best in terms of his checking account. The flip side is some times a guy will promise to do something and then wait till a snow storm to get started and then suspicion arises as to who he is looking out for especially if it is known he is looking for more ground.
 
The reason I mentioned reliable custom harvester who has pride, is the custom harvester who has done mine for maybe 12 years was getting a little bit in a hurry and the sloppyness followed. The grain tank was run over on top of the cab a few times too many, the grain cart was filled too full and a little grain would slide off the side. So that one winter after harvest I had to throw the fear of god into them. I wasn't paying them $40,000 a year to do shoddy work. I run a clean ship on my farm and I expect them to do the same. Having your crops custom harvested is not especially a piece of cake, but if you do find someone good to do the harvesting for you at a reasonable price, why own your own machine?


If your only choice is some neighbor who just wants to fly over a few more acres with his maladjusted combine that has parts falling off it, then you might be able to justify owning one IF you know how to run and maintain it properly. Jim
 
MFPoor:
I didn't make up numbers you fool. I stated that in 2011 it will cost $360 per acre corn inputs. It will cost $160 bean inputs. What are your numbers? My point was that a guy with 800 acres would have $208,000 worth of inputs. A very large business which should be able to afford an appropriately sized combine. Things haven't changed that incredibly much in the last 20 years profit wise. You said you farm right? You once again completely missed my point but you type quicker than you comprehend.
 
I like the idea of custom harvesting, I mean I don't like it but I could adapt if I had to. But the problem is timing, location, and grain handling capacity. I can't wait until Dec., and my ground is very chopped up and scattered around a 10 mile area. Also a guy with a 12 row head won't be willing to wait for my dryer to try and catch up. I can't imagine multiplying those problems to the 600 acre scale.
 
My dealer explained it like this when I asked him why companies no longer make smaller combines for medium size farmers.
His answer. Most small and medium size farmers are part time farmers. They work off the farm 8 hours or more a day. They do not want to come home from work and run a small combine all night to get a load. They want the good used combine from the large operator so they can come home run a load or two off before the elevator closes and get to bed to go to work the next day.
Mark
 
I don't follow your logic either... Just because someone has 200K in expenses doesn't mean they've got 200K income to cover it, let alone a surplus for new machines. Expenses vary widely... so does income. What you may be able to swing could be way out of reach for the next guy.

Rod
 
All manufactures make smaller combines in Europe.They just don't normally sell them here. I serve on the board on a organization that just bought a new massey conventional in the class you are talking about.Just a grain table. no corn head. It can only be bought from Kincaid in Kansas. We paid 167,000 for it after probably 40,000 in modification were done to make it easier to clean. We raise about 40 different species of grass.so cleaning is a big deal.It was taking about 12 to 14 man hours to clean our old 715 IH and now no more than 6.with the new Massey.
 
Or you can save yourself $169,000 dollars and harvest your crops with a $1000 dollar Gleaner like we do every year. We will next year, the year after that and so on.
 
There is absolutely no reason that a farm equipment manufacturer like John Deere, or any other, can't build cheap, economical, and fuel efficient combines for the smaller farms with less acreage. If that isn't true, how are the same equipment manufacturers currently building smaller-scale "hobby"-sized tractors(say JD 6230) to sell around $50-65k while, at the same time, building tractors(JD 7630 & 7830) that sell for over $130k? Why would it be any different for combines, or any other equipment?

There is something to be said for demand. If someone built a 4-6 row machine and sold it for say $75k, would there be enough buyers to make the production worthwhile? Currently, small farms are becoming less in number, and big farms becoming greater in size. Until that trend changes, we won't see cheap small combines any time soon. I don't know many small-scale(<1000A) farmers who buy any equipment for over $50k, most buy the cheap used stuff and work on it.
 
The C100 is a loader. It has an attachment plate like a skidsteer you can put other attachments on it. Most use them for the forestry mowers. The old model was a C85 and C87 they made a dozer blade model of those. I don't think they sold in high numbers so they just make the loaders right now. The website isn't real good. Too bad they don't list the specs.
They are about the same size as our old JD 440 crawler.
 
The market for smaller tractors is 1000% bigger than the market for smaller combines. Lots of rich acreage and hobby farmers out there and bigger farmers needing a utility tractor. I think it would be impossible to build a modern combine for less than $150,000. The tooling and robots to build it would cost millions and a combine is a lot more complex than a tractor. Dave
 
There's a much larger market for those tractors than there is for small combines... so they can spread the design costs over a lot more units. The othter factor is tht perhaps the design costs are much lower on the tractors... bear in mind that you get a MUCH lower specification, older technology tractor for the money you're talking about. NH's for instance... the tractor is a basic spec former 40/TS series tractor whose basic design goes back to 1965 and the Ford 5000 and the main elements that have changed are found in common with what they're selling in other parts of the world today where emissions are not a factor OR they're commonized with the higher spec tractors of today. A styling excercise to make the tractor 'look' a bit more modern doesn't cost them a pile of money. The foundry tooling does...
With combines the design is largely the same with the exception of scale... and in all probability the guy that wants the small machine still wants all the features of the big machine... he just doesn't want to pay as much... but there's not a large cost difference in the component cost for materials. There would be a significant cost in design that would then be spread over a smaller number of units... so it would never be cost effective to produce.

Rod
 
You should be quite proud of yourself. Most people with your type of brain injury never learn to use a computer. Now if you could only learn to THINK again.
 
I am making some assumtions with the bridge thing, but around here 20 years ago that was an issue, but all the real old bridges have been replaced, and a lot of the little old 'private' bridges have been replaced with large culverts.

If it took a couple of 4ft diameter culverts 40ft long just to get to 1000 acre patch, I would have it done within a week.......

It isn't that much money either. I just put one in on one farm, to get to the back 200 acres easier. 4ft diameter culvert 48ft long, good used shape, cost $1400. Took about 12 machine hours between the dozer and hoe (which I have my own, but still isn't free to run) and about 10 hours additional labor for help to manhandle everything.

Now I have a 30ft wide drive across a fairly large creek that you could go across in road gear if you wanted with whatever wieght you are hauling...

I got a little over $3000 in the crossing.

Even if it takes 2- 4ft ers to make a decent crossing, cost might be a little over $5000.

Not that big a deal in my book to have safe access.....
 
"Not that big a deal in my book to have safe access....."

Very true for a private crossing. Try arguing with a county gov't that won't even abandon a dead-end road to nowhere so the farmers could replace the bridge.

Most private crossings I've seen are very good. Many put road bridges to shame.

We've got alot of old, outdated county road bridges and culverts, but not quite to that extreme. Down the road from me a cement culvert started to collapse 20 years ago and the county's answer was to stick a steel culvert inside of it and hope for the best. The road gets a little lower there every year. It wouldn't suprise me if they shoved another steel culvert inside of that one.

We also have several 10+/- ton limit bridges, but if you had to, you can go around the block to avoid them. Problem is that unless one lets go, nobody will.

AG
 
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