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- Thread starter kito169
- Start date
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Salt still melts ice but the amount of salt required increases exponentially.
Makes a mess of vehicles. Used to be 3 yr old vehicles rusted through during the 60,70 and into the 80's. Now most vehicles last about 10 years before serious perforation starts.
Of course any work involves rusted bolts and fittings. Makes ownership of expensive or diesel vehicles a waste of money. They are rotten with rust and corrosion long before they are worn out.
Since the roads are only slippery at around the freezing point. Around here they alter the salt and sand mix to mostly sand at temps below 20-25F.
If you ever visit Ottawa. They just keep pouring salt onto the road so they melt through the snow and ice at any temperature. They want bare dry pavement for the foreign dignitaries to drive on.
Makes a mess of vehicles. Used to be 3 yr old vehicles rusted through during the 60,70 and into the 80's. Now most vehicles last about 10 years before serious perforation starts.
Of course any work involves rusted bolts and fittings. Makes ownership of expensive or diesel vehicles a waste of money. They are rotten with rust and corrosion long before they are worn out.
Since the roads are only slippery at around the freezing point. Around here they alter the salt and sand mix to mostly sand at temps below 20-25F.
If you ever visit Ottawa. They just keep pouring salt onto the road so they melt through the snow and ice at any temperature. They want bare dry pavement for the foreign dignitaries to drive on.
Brad Buchnan
Member
"Since the roads are only slippery at around the freezing point"
What color is the sky in your world??
Sounds like you got 'the big book of incorrect facts' for Christmas last year.
What color is the sky in your world??
Sounds like you got 'the big book of incorrect facts' for Christmas last year.
Russ from MN
Well-known Member
- Location
- Bemidji MN
I am afraid I agree with Buick, the colder it gets the less slippery it is, about 32F is the worse. It's nothing like dry pavement traction, but if you allow for it it's not a problem. one good thing is tires don't wear out nearly as fast!
New York has used at least different types of road salt over the years. All versions kill trees and pollute ground water. Good for new car sales though. Cars and trucks rarely last more then 10 years before they start rotting out.
Calcium Chloride on roads freezes at -20F
Sodium Chloride on roads freezes at + 15F
Magnesium Choride on roads freezes at +5 F.
New York tried mixing ground up glass with salt and sand last year.
This year they are mixing sand, salt, and sugar beet juice.
I don't believe any of it make anybody safer. The more the state plows and salts, the less people prepare and the faster they drive.
My vote is to go back to snow-packed roads and sand. When roads get back, drive slower.
Calcium Chloride on roads freezes at -20F
Sodium Chloride on roads freezes at + 15F
Magnesium Choride on roads freezes at +5 F.
New York tried mixing ground up glass with salt and sand last year.
This year they are mixing sand, salt, and sugar beet juice.
I don't believe any of it make anybody safer. The more the state plows and salts, the less people prepare and the faster they drive.
My vote is to go back to snow-packed roads and sand. When roads get back, drive slower.
Jim in Ma.
Well-known Member
As a rule of thumb - Salt stops working at 15%. For highway use when it gets close to that they need to mix it with sand.
back in the day, they would use calcium-chloride. ( yep the same stuff you put in tires for ballast).
Today they have other chemicals that are not as toxic.
That's the short answer.
back in the day, they would use calcium-chloride. ( yep the same stuff you put in tires for ballast).
Today they have other chemicals that are not as toxic.
That's the short answer.
Many places all over the USA (where it freezes) still use any one of the three most common salts (calcuim, sodium, and magnesium). I know in NY, it's a matter of price and availability. They usually buy what is the cheapest (in the short term), regardless of what is really costs overall - with all the damage done.
Last I heard, sodium chloride is the cheapest for now (in the short term) since it is mined under one of the great lakes not too far away.
NY has also tried CMA (calcium magnesium acetate), which I guess technically, is not a salt - but it was found to be too expensive.
Last I heard, sodium chloride is the cheapest for now (in the short term) since it is mined under one of the great lakes not too far away.
NY has also tried CMA (calcium magnesium acetate), which I guess technically, is not a salt - but it was found to be too expensive.
Where do you live??? most dangerous time driving or walking usually in afternoon with ,yes BLUE SKY as sun many times makes top wet and VERY slick. Most seem to not realize ice can everopate with out going to water . It goes directly to vapor, this is called sublimation. Thats why when clothes are hung on line in winter they still dry even at temps below freezing.
Jim in Ma.
Well-known Member
And people wonder why their vehicle rusts and fall apart lol
I've lived in the salt-belt of NY for 35 years now. Never yet have I had the chance to actually wear a vehicle out. All get scrapped due to rust and usually still run fine.
I bought a 91 Chevy 4WD diesel Suburban recently from local school. Well maintained, 80K original miles, runs perfect - but nothing left of the sheet-metal or frame. I paid $150 for it on sealed-bid.
Our newest vehicle here is a 2002 Subaru, and it already has some rust holes in it. Even the stainless exhaust system got rot holes in it.
Note that my 1979 Datsun 280ZX still has the original exhaust system on it, but it has never seen a winter road.
I bought a 91 Chevy 4WD diesel Suburban recently from local school. Well maintained, 80K original miles, runs perfect - but nothing left of the sheet-metal or frame. I paid $150 for it on sealed-bid.
Our newest vehicle here is a 2002 Subaru, and it already has some rust holes in it. Even the stainless exhaust system got rot holes in it.
Note that my 1979 Datsun 280ZX still has the original exhaust system on it, but it has never seen a winter road.
OldFarmTractor
Member
A few words that you might want to add to your vocabulary...
freezing point depression
sublimation (mentioned already)
0 Fahrenheit
regelation
I sometimes use general purpose fertilizer as an ice melter. Less chance of destroying my lawn.
freezing point depression
sublimation (mentioned already)
0 Fahrenheit
regelation
I sometimes use general purpose fertilizer as an ice melter. Less chance of destroying my lawn.
Not very mich salting done around me except maybe in some of the cities. Hardly ever see a salt shed. Gravel is applied at key intersections and corners. We pretty much drive on ice or packed snow all winter. Packed snow can be a bear when it starts to thaw. Potholes like you can't believe.
Brad Buchnan
Member
Well I guess I stand corrected. It is hovering around zero here so I will have to go out and take the chains off the N and do a few speed laps around the village.
(quoted from post at 11:11:53 12/15/10) Well I guess I stand corrected. It is hovering around zero here so I will have to go out and take the chains off the N and do a few speed laps around the village.
Fer crying out loud, Brad, he never said it wasn't slippery at 0.
He said it is MORE slippery right at the freezing point, which is true because you've got wet ice to deal with. Wet ice is the worst.
Snow at 0 degrees is gritty like sand. Still more slippery than dry pavement, but at least you can stop on it.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
When it's really cold the ice on the roads actually goes away. I think it might even evaporate but not sure if that's the right term. Roads can be bad around freezing temperature because the top surface can be slightly thawing and refreezing. It can be below freezing and do the same thing if the sun it out. Dave
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
Remember doing our little 3 day camp in basic training at Fort Leonard Wood in January. Got so cold that the flame froze up in the fire barrel. We dug a hole and barried it real deep so it wouldn't thaw out later and start a forest fire :roll:
Rollie NE PA
Well-known Member
In general salt will stop working at 15 degrees. However there are many factors that come in to play. Road temp, volume of traffic, sunny day vs cloudy day. Salt applied to ice on a sunny day will melt ice at 0 degrees.
When you have freezing rain you apply less salt because salt will lower the melting temp of the ice. Like making homemade ice cream. The salt added to the ice melts the ice but freezes the ice cream.
I could go on but you have the general idea.
Foreman, 34 years County Road & Bridge
When you have freezing rain you apply less salt because salt will lower the melting temp of the ice. Like making homemade ice cream. The salt added to the ice melts the ice but freezes the ice cream.
I could go on but you have the general idea.
Foreman, 34 years County Road & Bridge
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
That's right. The sun has warmed the ice and snow to the melt point of 32F. The water now makes for a slick slippery surface.
gtx1967jewison
Well-known Member
ur dumb. the end.
gtx1967jewison
Well-known Member
by the way lol the sky in my world is GREEN.
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