What's considered off peak electricity???

I am all the time seeing talk about using power "off peak", such as the thread below about the VOLT. Seeing talk about peak and off peak power and really thinking about it makes me question the whole idea. It's kind of like the old question/saying "If you expect the unexpected does it then make the unexpected expected?"
If everyone decided tomorrow to start driving electric vehicles then everyone would also have to charge them. Nowdays there is usually a "peak" power demand midday when it's hottest, and I can tell you there is another one around 5:30 to 6 or so, when people start getting home from work. I used to notice this when welding and would have to give the welder a boost around that time. Anyway if all these people all of a sudden start plugging in their cars and charging them at say midnight, which would most likely be considered 'off peak' nowdays, wouldn't that do nothing but create yet another new peak that doesn't currently exist?

Not to mention if the power companies should happen to realize that they would then have people even more under their power than they currently do (like the oil companies do when it comes to gas) who out there can't see electricity prices starting to rise....if for no other reason than to build power plants needed to meet the new demands, especially when I've read in numerous trade magazines that the current system is already too small to properly handle todays demand.

Congratulations- you just figured out what Washington hasn't been able to. You did forget if we switch to electric cars the electricity still has to be generated, probably with coal...so we are driving COAL FIRED cars. The envronmentalists will really be ------ when they figure that one out.

I'm on an electric co-op who for many years has championed "off=peak" strategies. My electric baseboard heating and central air conditioning are both on a separate "off peak" metering system. When the co-op experiences heavy loads in the winter when it's bitterly cold for example they shut down my baseboard heating for a period of time. It actually happens rather infrequently. Why do they do it? Because in very high demand they have to go out into the market and "buy" electricity at much higher rates than they can supply themselves I save money by paying a lower rate for my heating and appliances on the "peak" system to compensate for the inconvenience of having them off-load me during peak demand periods. It sounds messy but in reality it only happens at most 3-4 times a year and then only for a couple of hours.

"Peak" or "off peak" is anythng a power supplier wants it to be. Our company here in central New York, does not offer any special peak, or off-peak rates. I assume because there is no time of day (or night) when they have an overage of cheap electricity to get rid of.

Maybe they use it all up on their dam project. The built a dam with water-powered generators. They fill up the lake behind the dam at night - when there is less electric demand. They do it with electric pumps. Then when daylight comes, they "pull the plug", let the water out, and generators hooked to water-turbines make power to sell at hopefully - a higher rate then they pay to pump that water back up again.

The peak hours are where demand exceeds the base generation, and high dollar generation is added. The off-peak will typically be after 7:00 in the evening and before noon. Most industrial customers will pay off/on peak rates, but most residential do not.

When thinking about peak versus off-peak, consider this: The power company has to build a power plant capable of providing power at high demand times. During the night, most of that capacity is not used. But you can"t just turn down the power plant that easily. So they use a variety of stragegies. Coal still provides most of the base load electricity in the US. For periods when extra capacity is required (peaks), they can supplement with natural gas - much quicker response than coal (this is sometimes called needle peaking). Or buying extra power from other areas of the country that have excesses. And they are always trying to save fuel cost, so they are constantly arbitraging the prices (looking for the best deal) between coal, gas, oil, hydro, nuclear) to fulfill their supply. This often occurs on an hour to hour basis.
Hydro is nice if you have it, you can quickly reduce or increase the water through the turbines. Pump storage, as someone pointed out, takes advantage of using the excess electricity during the night to pump water back into a reservoir so it can be used to generate power during the day.
Electric vehicle charging during the night can take advantage of the off peak excess power. Ideally, this extra revenue during the night should mean lower overall costs for electricity - but don"t hold your breath.

If each and everyone took stock of how he/she wasted electricity we would solve our grid problems without spending a nickle.Each of you put your hand under yout PC now and feel the heat. Put your hand on that little charger pluged into the wall outlet near you. It was pretty warm wasn't it? That is wasted BTUs which convert to wasted KWHs that you pay for. How many lights do you leave on all day because you forgot to shut them off. How much heat would you keep under control, if you closed some curtins over windows in the evening hours during the winter or day light hours in summer. If everyone who posts here on YT counciously reduces his/her consumption by simply turning off electrical conponents when not in use it would make a bigger impact on electric demand than any
electric car they could buy.
Now lets think about residential electric generation. Wind, PV, Hydro. and solar thermo. Produce it, and consume it on your own property. Reduced load on local utility providers, thus reduced need for bigger, better local transmission lines. Reduced consumption of fosil fuels. These energy sources that mother nature provides are free for the taking. All one has to buy is the collector technology and conversion equipment. Also think about where your food comes from. Again grow it and consume it on your own property. Many of you are farmers and gardners and relate to this directly. You can be farmers of the soil, the sun, the wind, and the water. You can chose to reduce your comsumption of energy, or squander it. You can chose to harvest mother natures free resources, or complain about your energy bills. This is America. The Land of Opertunity.The choice is yours!

Here a kw/hour is a kw/hour at 2 am and 2 pm.

And I can see the smoke from the plant it comes out of from my yard.

Your right, there is alot of electricity wasted by light, computers, cell phone chargers,etc, etc, etc being left on. The thing is for all of the power wasted accidently, such as leaving a light on or whatever, look at all the power knowingly wasted for nothing more than entertainment. Heck, take this time of year for instance. There's probably more energy used for nothing but Christmas lights and decorations this time of year than is needed to power hundreds of houses all year. For an even more gross waste of power I'll say just one word, VEGAS..... I guess what I am saying is why worry so much about the accidental stuff you mention and make out like people are "bad" for doing when the real waste is knowingly done and seemingly done with pleasure, for entertainment, and without a second though................

wisbaker you are he only one who got ncwayne's point . it was very clear to me . makes me wonder about people reading comprhension level

Read through this link. You can see when the electrical grid has equipment sitting unused on nights and weekends.

http://www.ieso.ca/

You and I are on the same track heading the same direction. No collisions here.

Here in Idaho our local power company does offer on peak/off peak power. On peak is from 6:00 am to 10:00 pm and other time is off peak. I don't recall the rates because my wife takes care of that. I think it is like 3-4 cents off peak and 9-10 cents on peak. Holidays and weekends are off peak. Still use about the same amount of electricity just do more on weekends and run dishwasher etc. at night. Saves $$$. Steven

I have read that 10% of all the electricity used in the US is for running industrial air compressors. And there is a lot waste in running those beasts. And ALL air systems leak to some degree.....Lots and Lots of wasted energy there, lots of money.

An easier question to answer is "what is PEAK electricity?". Most power generating systems cannot quickly respond to changing loads. This is particularly true of coal-fired steam generation plants. Gas turbines can respond quickly, and hydroelectric is probably the best. Now because there is a limited supply of peak capacity, that power is much more valuable than power from other sources. So even though your meter doesn't (in most cases) differentiate between peak and non-peak power, the cost for the power company to provide power during peak periods is much more than during the rest of the day.

So, to get to my point, if the power company can INCREASE demand during non-peak hours, it will actually REDUCE their cost during peak hours. Why? Because they need to use LESS peak power. For example, let's say I have two power plants, one coal and one hydro. The coal plant plant can produce 5 megawatts and the hydro one megawatt. Now let's say my demand is 4 MW non-peak and 6 MW peak. So I'll run my coal plant at 4 MW, generate an additional one MW peak with my hydro plant, and I still have to buy another MW to cover the rest of my peak. But if I can eliminate my peak so I have a constant 5 MW, I can run my coal plant at capacity, not buy any peak and SELL my hydro power at peak rates.

Now to throw electric vehicles into the mix, the power companies are very concerned about their ability to meet the demand if electric cars become popular. Today many customers have interruptible power for their AC and hot water. I imagine that the power companies already have plans to provide interruptible power for vehicle chargers as well; this would allow them to actually reduce the rates for electric vehicle power.

BINGO!

If even 5% of the automobile market switched to plug in vehicles tomorrow, we would be in a heap of trouble for years.

Charging such vehicles on off-peak hours is a way of delaying, though not preventing, the inevitable.

Is there anyone, anywhere that does not believe that people will charge their electric vehicles when it is convenient for them?

Dean

BINGO, again!

The power must be generated, and coal, nuclear and a bit from natural gas are the only viable options. Those who think that we are going to do it with Chinese made windmills need to put the pointy hat back on.

This is why cube dwelling federal bureaucrats with little or no understanding of engineering, physics, chemistry, etc., etc., should not be making policy (or much else, for that matter).

Dean

How often do you think it will happen if 5-10% of your neighbors buy plug in vehicles?

Dean

Dean, I don't know of any US utility that does not have at least some of their customers on interruptible service for air conditioning and/or hot water. They will certainly use the same technology for vehicle chargers if and when plug-in electric vehicles become significant consumers of power.

Holy Sheepdip Batman! This guy has figured it out!!!! The same folks fighting the coal fired power plants are also championing electric cars. Has anyone else made the connection?

The loss of industrial base in this country will offset this slightly...

Aaron

Well said, but remember the wealthy deserve all they can buy. And the poor need to tighten their belts to become better US citizens.

Has anyone thought how often the planes are in the air for nothing more than a get away, a business deal (that probably could be done by the net, or phone). My son takes at least three to twelve plane trips each month for his company to resolve problems. Many he fixes from the motel room in the city that has the problem, by phone. He wonders why he can't do it from his desk at work.

Our president, congressman --well we all understand----, that they could not (and should not) stand the hardship of living in DC for a full week under those awful conditions.

I don't have it available in Northern Michigan -from Preque Isle Power and Electric.

I don't have it available in Northern Michigan from Alpena Power and Light.

I don't have it available in the NY Adirondcaks in Hamilton County from National Grid (formerly Niagara Mohawk and now owned by a company in England).

I don't have it available in central NY in Otsego County from National Grid.

So, now you know of at least four - and it's easily verified on-line.

Actually, that's three, not four. You counted National Grid twice.

I decided to take you up on your challenge.

Presque Isle Electric and Gas Cooperative: <A href="https://www.pieg.com/RateInformation.cfm">https://www.pieg.com/RateInformation.cfm</a>
"Controlled Water Heating Service" is clearly listed and described.

Alpena Power: Doesn't appear to have interruptible residential service. In the unlikely event that electric cars take off in Alpena, I guess they'll have to do something about it. That place is so backwards they think disco is going to be the next big thing.

National Grid (upstate NY): Although National Grid does not appear to offer interruptible service, it does have residential Time of Use service, accomplishing much the same thing by rewarding off-peak use. <a href="https://www.nationalgridus.com/niagaramohawk/home/rates/4_tou.asp">https://www.nationalgridus.com/niagaramohawk/home/rates/4_tou.asp</a>

National Grid . . . twice . . . counts because they sometimes make different offers in different regions - just as many power companies do. If you carefully read the small print and all associated charges, their "residential controlled use" service is not the same and in our case, would of saved us nothing.

I called Presque Isle Power and Light two months ago on this very subject. They do NOT offer it to customers in the area of Hawks (in Bismarck Township) and that is where my house and farm is.
They do offer it in some other areas.

Here in NY, 20 miles from me in the City of Oneonta, they have New York State Electric and Gas instead of National Grid. That company DID used to offer night-rate power and urged people to install hot-water heaters with timers, and some sort of electric heat thermal-storage system that only got powered at night. It got dropped after two years. Since then, NYSEG got bought by a company in Spain and last I heard - no deals available. So now, the two major power companies are foreign owned and not giving any such deals.

Actually, If you have electric heat, what difference does it make if you leave the lights on or the charger or the puter. I've forgotten the figure used when the discussions of EDEN PURE heaters come up but the heat from the puter bulbs and chargers actually helps heat the house.

Here in West Central Wisconsin, on Rural electric
Co-op, (Riverland Energy Co-op) Peak usage time,
For customers on "Time of use" billing , is from
5 P.M. to 9 P.M. Our rates are 6.9 cents per kilowatt at of peak, and about 36 cents per kilo
watt at peak usage time. We have a dual meter that measures the usage and time, and the monthly
bill lists off peak and on peak usage. Peak usage is when you're home
cooking, watching TV, have lights on in the winter,
so we live like moles !