antifreeze question

Last week I saw disel antifreeze being sold on the shelf beside regular antifreeze. What is the difference? I mix all of mine from concentrate, but if diesel antifreeze has something that I'm missing, I'll switch over.
thanks
Jason

The diesel antifreeze probably just has anti-cavitation additive already mixed in. For my diesels, I just use Preston green, add anti-cavitation additive, and mix with distilled water at 50/50; change every 2 years. I keep some of this 50/50 mix in a bottle for any topping off during the year. This works better for me, rather than trying to test, strain, worry about additives, etc.
Tom

You're right, where do you get the additive and what kind are you using?

For years I bought the cheaper car /gas engine antifreeze and home brew added the additive package for diesel engines.

Finally one time I sat down and crunched the numbers and discovered that the end cost of my home brew coolant was higher than buying a name brand concentrate with the Diesel additive package already in it. :-(

Antifreeze used to be the same, not anymore. About fifteen years ago the car antifreeze started having more silica added for the aluminum blocks and heads that the cars have. I have seen engine failure caused by using car antifreeze in heavy diesel motors. It turns to like a Jello looking stuff that collects around the sleaves and will not conduct heat. It can cause a hot spot on the sleave. Just adding diesel conditioners is not the same thing.

I use John Deere Cool guard in all of my diesels and iron blocked gas engines. YES I know it costs more but how much antifreeze do you use anyway??? Good antifreeze with the conditioners added yearly will last for many years. This anti freeze comes premixed with deionized, dematerialized water. I don"t have to worry if it is mixed right or if the kids or wife add the wrong thing. Plus it seems to keep the systems more rust-free too.
Another thing to think about. Conditioners should be added yearly. They go bad with time not usage. I have tractors that are used maybe fifty hours each year. I had the antifreeze tested on all of my tractor several years ago. The low usage ones showed the same conditioner loss as the ones used for many hours.
I have been using the John Deere product for many years. The part number is TY16004 cost $3.66 for a sixteen ounce bottle. That will treat several tractors. New Holland and Napa also have good ones too. I just use the JD product as it does not cost that much and the JD dealer is two miles away and the parts house ten.

Q: Is wet sleeve cavitation a problem specific to only diesel engines or is it a problem for gas engines with wet sleeves also?

I've always used plain-jane green automotive "all-purpose" coolant, not really considering there might be alternatives with different chemistry(outside 2yr vs 5yr change). Makes me think I should take a look at coolant made for heavy-duty applications.

Liner cavitation is actually electrolysis. The aluminum piston moving in the cast steel cylinder liner generates an electric field. That field causes the water chemistry to corrode a very small area fast. It looks like worm holes. It usually is in the liner but sometimes it can be in the block. It is effected by the liner shape and piston size. That is why some brands of engines are more likely to have it happen. The additives just change the electrical properties of the antifreeze water mix.
As to it just being a diesel engine problem. It can be a gas engine problem too. There just are not too many wet sleeve gas engines. Most gas engines are dry sleeved. All of the Fords are.

Cant remember the exact name, buy got it at the Case IH, Kubota dealer last time. I think it was IH brand but not sure. One time I used New Holland brand. QAlmost any dealer will have anti-cavitation additive and the bottle will tell the exact quarts of coolant that it will treat. Tom

Dont want to start an argument but I saw a drawing somewhere and the dealer told me that cavitation was csused by the vibration frequency of the engine making tiny "air" pocket, which is actually a "vacum bubble" over and over again in the same location. Thus the collaspe of the bubble causes the coolant to pound over and over in one tiny spot until it pits through the sleeve or block. I have not researched it, just been told and the drawing I saw. Tom

I am just stating what I was taught in service school. It really does not make much difference. We both are saying that if your antifreeze is not maintained than you can have problems.

It seems that some models and makes of tractors are worst than others. The IH 66 series had it show up at relative low hours. Allis-Chalmers 301 ci engine had that trouble. John Deere had it in the 30 series tractors. Cummins had it in the 855 blocks in the 1980s. So many manufactures have had the issue.

I don"t think the risk is worth it for the cost of coolant. You just don"t use that many dollars worth each year.

Wow! I dont know what to say after all of that except get a diesel rated coolant. They are several good ones on the market that dont required SCAs at all, and are good for years. BTW, John Deeres high dollar CoolGaurd is the exact same coolant Ford uses in their cars,(Only a different color) so why put a coolant that barely meets Fords spec for their cars in a HD diesel engine.

For what cavitation is, here is a clip from arrowhead radiator:
"Cavitation is the formation and collapse of air bubbles on the outside of the cylinder walls during combustion (does not apply to dry-liner engines). These air bubbles implode repeatedly against the surface of the liner and can cause erosion of the liner that may progress into the combustion chamber."
Tom

FWIW, you are right.

Cavitation is caused by the violent implosion of gas bubbles on or near a metal surface. In the case of wet sleeve engines, the gas bubbles are created by high frequency vibration of the cylinder sleeve that produce pressure changes in the fluid surrounding the "wet" surface of the sleeve. The vibration is caused by extremely high combustion chamber pressures in high compression engines, which is why wet sleeve diesel engines are highly susceptible to cavitation.

Electrolysis is the process by which charged atoms, or ions, are separated from molecules in a fluid or solution that has electric current passing through it. The current moves the newly freed atoms to a metal surface, acting as a cathode or anode depending on the charge of the ion; thereby coating the metal surface with material. Anodizing is exhibit A for electrolysis.

Nothing I have found says that cavitation cannot occur in wet sleeve gas engines, but I suspect that it is much less of a problem, if a problem at all, in gas engines with compression ratios under 10:1.

If you have a wet sleeve diesel engine, you should definitely be running coolant with the appropriate additives for preventing cavitation from occurring.

I agree that cost is insignificant considering coolant change intervals and the potential cost of damage caused by using the wrong coolant.

Low silicate and low phosphate coolants are what you want to run in any tractor, heavy-duty, or high performance engine; and diesels need the anti-cavitation coolant.

(quoted from post at 10:41:52 11/18/10) FWIW, you are right.

Cavitation is caused by the violent implosion of gas bubbles on or near a metal surface. In the case of wet sleeve engines, the gas bubbles are created by high frequency vibration of the cylinder sleeve that produce pressure changes in the fluid surrounding the "wet" surface of the sleeve. The vibration is caused by extremely high combustion chamber pressures in high compression engines, which is why wet sleeve diesel engines are highly susceptible to cavitation.

Electrolysis is the process by which charged atoms, or ions, are separated from molecules in a fluid or solution that has electric current passing through it. The current moves the newly freed atoms to a metal surface, acting as a cathode or anode depending on the charge of the ion; thereby coating the metal surface with material. Anodizing is exhibit A for electrolysis.

Nothing I have found says that cavitation cannot occur in wet sleeve gas engines, but I suspect that it is much less of a problem, if a problem at all, in gas engines with compression ratios under 10:1.

If you have a wet sleeve diesel engine, you should definitely be running coolant with the appropriate additives for preventing cavitation from occurring.

Click to expand...

Nicely said. There are a couple more bits. Cavitation is a problem with any thin walled wet sleeve using a poorly controlled ignition (such as a diesel), and electrolysis is a factor in all engines. But not from piston motion. That water pump on the other hand, now there is a biggy. When flowing, you can measure voltage in the water at the radiator cap, and that will eat things. Aluminum parts are the worst. Zinc donor metal is and has always been the best for stopping that. Same as boats.

Having several 66 series IH tractors with the "melrose" wet sleeve engines (312/414/436/466) and did some research on the subject.

The cause was tiny air bubbles forming around the cylinders that would effectively drill a hole in the cylinder liner and leak antifreeze into the engine oil. No power loss or other issues just milky oil.

The fix was to add an additive called DCA4 and install a water filter. The filter cleaned out impurities and changed the water flow both of which reduced bubbles. DCA4 further aided in this effort.

Old fashion green anti-freeze is what you need to use plus an additive like DCA4.