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Anonymous-0

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I have some timber to sell and was wondering what the best option for marketing it might be? Several acres with scattered oak, ash and walnut 24-48" diameter. I have equipment to fall and drag it out but can I make better money than selling the timber and not touching it? Where are the markets? East central IL.
 
Do you have a state forrester? He can advise you or try your extension educator.
 
Make real sure you have a good buyer lined up before you cut anything. Dad and I did a timber job in 1980 for a neighbor. Had a yard full of real nice red oak and ash logs and then had to beg people to come look at them. We did sell them, but my recollection is neither us or the neighbor were very happy with the proceeds.

Tim
 
becareful my expereince with most loggers are that you will be taken to the cleaners. get deposit if they will on the logs if not paid for in advance, find out where there are goin to be taken to.
have had logs taken 3 times here, 2 was basically just robbed. the last he did pay a deposit, an then paid what was owed, showed me the paper work.
johndeeregene
 
You got that right.

About 20 years ago, some loggers from Missouri came through here wanting to buy cottonwoods to make pallets. (So they said).

I went through our timber with one of them with a can of red spray paint and marked a couple dozen trees I'd sell. They came back when no one was home, cut down about eight huge oak trees, left them lay, and disappeared. Never saw hide nor hair of them again, and they never touched the ones I'd marked.
 
deerly,

I, too, was taken by a crook a few years ago on some timber. He hauled logs to a buyer and then came back with the tickets and settled up with me. I went to the buyer and found out that the guy wasn't showing me all of the tickets and that the crook was unloading some of my logs and telling the buyer that those particular logs were actually his so the buyer was writing up separate tickets for those logs.

I threw the thief off my place. A few months later, he ended up in prison for stealing copper wire from a TVA site.

Thieves are thieves.

Tom in TN
 
Consulting foresters are the way to go. For a percentage they can mark your timber, write a bid spec, and contract with the appropriate people. You get paid up front, in full.
 
markets aren't very good right now, especially for the best grades. Low grades are moving well at good prices for what they are but not good for high grade logs. Loggers will want a quick turnover & will want to sell the high grade at low grade prices because moving the money is more important than holding logs which degrade quickly while hoping to find a decent grade buyer. In other words, they're not going to gamble but will take the quick money & run. Logs the size you mention should have a lot of high grade lumber in them. Hold'em for several years if you can. And do like hayman says, get a consultant. An experienced one has a better chance of having connections to the best buyers.
 
The first thing you need to know is what you have.You won't know what it's worth until you have it cruised. After it's cruised you will know the footage of hardwood,softwood and pulpwood. You may have a website for your state that'll show timber prices that are up to date. Then do the math and you'll know what it's worth.

If you use a timber consultant he will do all that in a package. In my area we put the timber for sale up for auction to timber corp. for sealed bids. Just make sure you have the right to refuse the top bid. Many timber companies in my area stopped useing timber buyers and let the logger take all the risk.

Most land owners have no idea what their timber is worth and most get about half of what it's worth. Do your homework and know what you have before you try and sell it. Leaves have fallen in most places enough to get a good cruise now. perfect time to have it done now.
 
I know this,dont allow a logging crew to cut it. You will end up with a mess.

Unless you have many acres of all hardwoods that are 18" + in diameter and 40' of straight truck it may not be worth as much as you want. Call a lumber mill and see.
I called one in Northern Michigan and they told me what just said. I am glad that I didnt cut up my small forest for an extra few bucks.
 
The only way I would sell timber is standing. I want to know what it's worth BEFORE it's laying on the ground. Also puts more risk on the buyer--healthy-looking trees could be hollow. A consultant is a very valuable member of a sale. He'll know the crooks who take more trees than they've bought, won't clean up, etc. He'll oversee the entire sale from marking to final inspection. Money well spent in my opinion.

Larry
 
I agree msb. Contact your DNR or State forestry division.
They can advise you as to the value of your timber plus they usually have a list of local lumber men who will give you fair market prices.
Usually they will come out and walk the woods with you - no charge.
You are paying these bureaucrats for this very purpose. Might as well get your money's worth.
 
timely topic-I realize their are many variables but a local 700 acre parcel of land is to be auctioned in tracts. A timber survey has been completed with over 2.5 million bd ft of standing timber. My brother and I was discussing what that is worth-Mostly hardwood-the size and scope is unknown to us. For general information purposes what is the timber worth on a board foot calculation-standing and letting someone else remove?
Thanks
 
I've cut my own small tracts of timber a couple times and its worked well as most loggers don't want to mess with a small tract.The most profitable way is to cut the timber dress the ends up and have it all in one place on the ground then get local mills and buyers to come bid on it.This is much better than hauling it to a mill as you cut because the mill guys know you're going to sell it to them regardless most likely and you have no other offers to compare it to.Also in most states a landowner cutting their own timber doesn't have to go by the same forestry rules as a logging company especially if you say you're cutting the trees to clear it out for pasture land.
 
If you can wait I would. Here in the northeast timber values and under half what they were 2 years ago for maple, cherry etc. We have a little sawmill and saw and sell lumber and the retail end is not bad this year but the wholesale folks are really hurting.
Zach
 
I agree with kyhayman. Hire a forester to come in and do the calculating. That way you know what you have before some shyster logger comes in and talks you out of your timber for half what it's worth. The forester works for you where the logger works for himself or the mill who hires him.

The forester should be able to put the timber up for bid and put together a contract that assures you of not having a big mess when they are all done. If you let someone come in and ruin your timber tract, you have to live with that forever. It could take 80 years before it comes back-if it ever does.

Putting the timber up for bid will assure you that you get what it's worth on the market today.

Yes you can cut it yourself but, do you really know what you are doing? Splitting the butt logs due to poor felling techniques will really impact the final value. And again, what you leave for yourself and your kids is up to you. A regrowing timber stand or a real mess. If your site causes problems with runoff down the road, the DEP can come in and make you clean it up at your expense. Might just eliminate all your profits in the long run. If you really know what you are doing and if you have access to several mills to get the best price for each species, then maybe you should do it yourself.

Here is a place you might want to consider stopping by and talk with the foresters. Get their opinions and don't be afraid to ask for references.It's not always about getting every board foot out of the woods but also about what you leave behind that determines how strong and quick the woodlot returns.
Forestry forum
 
Only deal with an honest man. A contract with a crook is totally worthless. Also be sure the honest man knows timber and make a deal (better no bids) You want him to make some money , but not get cheated in the process. I would only allow timber work by the shares from someone who is honest and knows what he is doing. A good log cutter can make or break you. He should know what the mill wants. Good luck!
 
Up here in Maine the prices are down according to some people. If prices are down in your area and your stand is not suffering damage of any sort leave it till prices come up. If its healthy it may be growing 1/2 to 3/4 cord per acre per year.
 
Only one logger works in my woods,ME when I need some lumber I bring a few logs to my sawmill. Never sell any so no taxes are due.The woods have been stripped along my east boundry, big mess.Many good fire wood trees pushed down or scarred up.Loggers are always after me to cut on my place.I just say not while I am alive.Ive seen some beautiful spots in the woods destroyed to get at a few logs.Ive cut wood on my place since 1966, after the brush piles rot down you cant tell that wood has been cut there.
 
Something I have not seen mentioned is to get your own mill and process them yourself. If memory serves me correctly, mobile dimension mills use two circular blades running at right angles to each other and can cut any size log. Smaller logs might be better done with a portable band mill. Little mills can often get good prices for their product, and you would be cutting out the middle man.
 
If you set up your own mill remember the hours it will trake to cut the lumber, stack to dry lumber and to market the lumber.

Better have lots of free time to do it yourself.

Let alone the cost of the mill.

I'd leave the milling to the pros.
 
There are people that will come to your place with a saw mill for hire. If you have the ability to drop, drag and lift, then you'll just pay sawing.
KYs system is sort of unique, a forester will come and mark for a nominal fee. I think it was by board feet and you just payed for trees marked not all that were looked at, but they can't tell you prices
They also have a list of marketers and these people didn't impress me as watching out for my interest. They might get your money up front but wasn't guaranteeing about damage to fences, other crop trees, clean up, etc. I also have a large stand of pine trees that they would do me a favor and take out.
Still have my trees and they get bigger every year.
 
If you've got stuff in the 24" to 48" diameter range (not circumference) then you've probably got some very valuable trees. To give you an idea... hard maple and yellow birch were selling as high as $2000 MBF here about 5 years ago. I haven't checked what it is lately but I know it's not anywhere near that. As I recall both Oak and walnut would fall into that same price category for number one veneer logs... So. Now is not the time to sell unless you need to or the stuff is falling down.
When you do go to sell, fidn someoen with an ample understanding of how to grade those logs for top grade. How they're cut and how they're handled is vital. They're graded on clear faces (knots, defects, etc) and one wrong cut that includes a defect that could have otehrwise been left out can severly degrade a log. You NEED specific knowledge of grading before you cut... so find a consultant who has that knowledge and can help you. Selling them after that point is probably not too difficult if you have top end stuff. Consultant will know where to sell.

I don't normally disagree with someone suggesting that you do a cruise and price hte stuff before you cut but in this case you need the stuff on the ground before you can properly grade it... then price it. Just take your time and find the right person with the right connections and at the correct time you could realize a lot of cash from that wood.

Rod
 
If you have some logs that could be veneer which is likely with walnut, but highly unlikely with ash, you should consider having a professional do the felling on at least those trees. You'll feel pretty bad if you split a 48" walnut veneer butt log. Also, have someone who knows log grading help you do the bucking after you've got the logs at the landing. It doesn't take long and can save you a lot of mistake-money. Usually, you can find someone who has a log truck that can do these services as well as the hauling for you. If you don't know anyone who can do this, get in contact with your nearest mill and ask them who to get in contact with. If you do end up with veneer logs, make sure you get bids on them.
 
> Up here in Maine the prices are down according to some people.

Yeah, hardwood prices follow luxury goods demand and they've taken a bit of a dive in recent years. However, they are still commodities so they're rebounding. I think walnut prices are at an all-time high right now, though. Red Oak is just now starting to climb back up to pre-recession prices.

IL has good hardwood log price reports:

<a href="http://web.extension.illinois.edu/forestry/il_timber_prices/index.html">IL log prices</a>
 
We've logged it our selfs about every 5-6 years for the last 30 years. We stacked them out front by the road, and the sawmill came and picked them up. allways got top dollar, but it was a lot of work.

This year we went with a Forester. Actually made out better. He gets paid a percentage based on the total BF that He sells.
He cruises the woods marking trees. Then does an auction and sells it off to the highest bidder.
They pay up front, and all I have to do is sit and watch out the window..
He has to leave a deposit with the forester, then he has to clean up proper when done to get the deposit back.
 
A few pieces of advice for what they are worth ...

1) Take your time, unless your woods are diseased or infested with a pest of some sort, you should be under no pressure to sell ... after all they are only going to get bigger with each passing year.

2) Talk to people, educate yourself, find other landowners who have had timber harvests as to their experience and who their logger was ...

3) Find out what your state laws are concerning timber. Each state is different. For example, in TX, timber is considered to belong to the surface fee owner and may be assigned as a property right, however a contract for sale is a better position for the landowner. Also in TX, nonpayment by a harvester after six months after a harvest is considered to be presumptive theft.

4) Note that conditions that you place on the sale will affect the price that you receive. However, you do need to consider what work you have to do after the harvest to replant or restore your woods for the next harvest.

5) With hardwoods, consider what effect the loss of the mast crop will have on the wildlife occupying your land.

6) Consider what you may need to do to increase the value of your standing timber. This is forest management. Does brush need to be cleared? Does the stand need to be thinned? What are the commercial species in your area?

7) Even though hardwoods are harvested by subsequent generations, consider replanting what hardwoods you do harvest rather than relying on natural regeneration.

hth

pkurilecz
 
if it were me i would hire a consulting forester to sell the timber because they charge you a percentage (usually 7-10%) of the total price therefore the more you make the more he makes. check with your local county forester to get names of area foresters. also your state may require foresters to be registered as here in MS if so they would have a website you could look up foresters in your area. also have potenial foresters give you some references to see how good of a job they have with previous clients. here is a link to the cerifed forester through their professional organization.
society of american foresters
 
Alot of good tips here , talking to others in the area that has sold timber will let you know who does a good job and who dont . If you dont know the buyers it will cost you down the line .They will generally give you about the same price standing , they can get a better look at the log that way . We used to buy and cut some timber back when my body could do it . We always paid half when we bought it and the other half when we showed up wlth the saws . Sell X no. trees for X amount of money . Mark and no. the trees yourself then let 2,3 or 4 buyers bid on those trees and only those trees , walk the woods with them . Keep things in mind about ground condition when there cut , you dont want them in there in the mud making a mess . The state forester is also a very goog way to go . Just dont get in a hurry and a little education and leg work can get you alot of extra $$ .
 
A buyer who ways he's going to cut the big ones and leave the little one to grow up is a crook. He'll take anything of value and leave the weeds.
 
As a forester the best advice I can give somebody in other regions is ask around a find a reputable and trustworthy forester in your area. Have him come in and write a management plan for the tract. Just cutting all the big trees is [b:a1057c850d][size=18:a1057c850d]terrible[/size:a1057c850d][/b:a1057c850d] management for most species and will result in lower yields down the road and lower value at selling time. Having a management plan written and the marketed timber put out for bid insures that you will receive the best price.

Have the forester handle all the ground work and make sure he has a good contract for the logger to sign. That way you can fall back on it in the event that the logger doesn't leave the woods the way you want it.

Now i will say that hopefully the "high" prices that everybody keeps talking about don't return as they were over inflated and not sustainable.

Any more questions just ask I enjoy talking forestry and hate seeing landowners with a sour taste in their mouth about logging.
 
Your in the hottest walnut area in the world I hear (me too). I've heard from several foresters that from you over to white county is the best. I always thought my cherry was nice, but I guess we're in the bad spot for it. I would hire a forester and have them do an appraisal and offer their opinion. I've seen several woods that are damaged for a hundred years and am scared to death to hire just anyone to log it. I have a few walnut to sell also. Heard of twenty some veneer walnut trees selling for over $200,000 in north central IN recently. Mine aren't that nice. I did pay $250 to have an appraisal done and at least know what I have. I also walked the woods with him and learned more about paw paw's, iron wood, different hickories and much more. It was worth it.
 
Sustainable? What's not sustainable is the present situation where the cost of producing wood is not met, year after year. The way it's been here the last few years... a person would be no further behind if they left the bark beetle to clean the place out rather than haul the wood out.

Rod
 
Consider finding someone who will skid with horses if you can. I've seen a lot of woods ruined for 25 years by careless use of a skidder. Getting a fair price, WITHOUT DAMAGING THE REMAINING TIMBER, is more important than top dollar at sale time. It's your future!
 
(quoted from post at 17:27:07 11/05/10) Sustainable? What's not sustainable is the present situation where the cost of producing wood is not met, year after year. The way it's been here the last few years... a person would be no further behind if they left the bark beetle to clean the place out rather than haul the wood out.

Rod
Click to expand...

Whats not sustainable is overly high prices causing many people to jump on the band wagon and liquidate their timber because it is worth "so much". Leaving much of the landscape robbed and stripped of all the timber that was and ever will be worth a darn in terms of $$$ and ecologically.

As for the price of producing not being met that means that your producers (loggers) and manufactures (mills) are poorly managed. Our mill has been in business for 30 years and has continued working straight through the last few years of "bad times" and turned a profit every year.
 
Must be a lot of poorly managed mills then.... because the only ones that are still operating here are the ones on the government t!t and they're not hanging on by much. The only reason they have enough wood to operate most days is because they have crown leases that cost them about 1 dollar per metric tonne of fibre and probably hold the loan guarantees on most of the contractors equipement... so those guys can't afford to quit or they're going to lose all their equity... so they just keep peddling and hoping tomorrow will get better even though they're not making anything.
Wood has always gone in boom/bust cycles. To my way of thinking it's just plain stupid to be selling wood at the bottom of the cycle.

Rod
 
When demand spikes then timber prices rise dramatically then it causes a large flood in the market because everybody is selling and then the whole thing goes bust as the demand has slowed down. This is what happened a few years ago, and back in the 80's.

If you are able to sustain prices someplace in the middle then supply can somewhat equal demand and the prices will persist increasing slightly with inflation and such.


Our mill is sawing 25000-30000 log feet a day 5-6 days a week and moving all grades of lumber without much issue. Sure the landowners aren't getting rich off their timber, but neither is the mill getting rich off the lumber. Loggers are making it as cost of production has come down a lot in the last couple years. So the whole system is working.
 
The cost of production hasn't come down any appreciable amount here. Anyone that's getting ahead cutting wood is taking it out of the woodlot owner, plain and simple. Price has moved up slightly in the past few months but nothing to really get excited about.

Rod
 
(quoted from post at 13:39:00 11/06/10) The cost of production hasn't come down any appreciable amount here.
Click to expand...

Most places (including here) the cost of labor has come down as there are plenty of people willing to work for less money because they need the job. Also the cost of equipment has come down with all the bank repo units for sale and from people who got out of the woods business. Price of fuel has come back down a little to under 3 bucks a gallon from its high at over 4.

As a forester/log buyer/log yard supervisor/woods boss for a hardwood mill here in the western UP I deal with this day in and day out for a living and truly hope that prices never get back to those record highs as it wasn't good for the entire supply/demand economics of forestry. Because when log prices were at their all time high, the lumber prices didn't follow closely enough to sustain itself long term IMO/IME.
 
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