culvert for stream crossing

jacks · Oct 27, 2010

I need to put in a stream crossing over a stream which is about 2 feet wide and typically 3-6 inches deep. I picked up the 24" culverts shown in the attached photos for a very cheap price. Some of the flanges are broken, and it has been sitting outside for many years. I will need to fill about 8-10 feet over top of the culvert, and want to be able to drive any type of vehicle (loaded logging truck etc) over the crossing. This is a forestry crossing, and does not require inspection. I would like everyone"s opinions on whether this culvert would work OK, or whether I should find something in better shape.

RayP(MI) · Oct 27, 2010

Flanges don't bother me, but material looks pretty weathered. I'd be looking for something else. I hate to have to do a job over, when I could have done it right the first time.

Anonymous-0 · Oct 27, 2010

I'd use galvanized steel culvert. Dave

Bkpigs · Oct 27, 2010

Would you be able to lay the culvert and then put a 1-2" layer of concrete over the top of the sections? The main problem that arises with the concrete sectional culverts is washing in from the top creating a sink hole.

paul · Oct 27, 2010

I'd wrap it with a pretty good fabric on the seams. As you say,t he problem will be dirt flowing into the damaged cracks, won't seem like much at first, for years even, but just once it will start in, and will suck out a whole sinkhole.

I remember on Axemen when they had unusual heavy rain, and their culverts washed out. Be sure you aren't creating a dam should you get a downpour. It's amazing, the power of water.

I'd use them if they are big enough, but put the worst lip to the outside, and wrap the other seams with a good membrane.

Might want to price double-wall plastic, much easier to handle, by the time you are done might not be more money for the whole project with ease of use.

--->Paul

Earl Gray · Oct 27, 2010

I have heard that old carpet makes a good joint wrap, lasts forever underground.

old · Oct 27, 2010

8-10 foot of fill over them that is a lot. That said if you fill in and seal the joints it will work just find and out last your life time. Having that much over fill just be sure the culvert is long enough because the deeper it sits the wider an area has to be done and the longer the culvert wil need to be. I.E. if the road if 10 foot wide and you have 10 foot fill over the top you will need about 30 foot of culvert or the over fill will clog up the ends of the culvery

bison · Oct 27, 2010

They prob wash out next spring with the snow melt.
IMO you're far better of with a 3-4 foot steel culvert.

Bigger is better

PJH · Oct 27, 2010

I'd put the best part of the flanges down and use a abundant (can I use that word here?) coat of heavy tar on all of the joints, with some heavy valley flashing over the badly broken flanges. The bell end always should go upstream - the spigot end downstream. The more fill you have the better. I've removed pipe sections that looked worse than that, and had been in the ground for fifty years. Cracks in the barrel of the pipe should worry you, and it would be nice to have perfect flanges, but those sections, if not barrel cracked, will serve you well if you make an effort to seal the joints.

As far as sizing the pipe to the drainage area - never install a drainage structure that is smaller than the ones upstream and downstream from it.

The pipe flowline should match the ditch flowline to prevent scouring/silting.

Paul

Anonymous-0 · Oct 27, 2010

99 % of the time it will work fine IT IS VERY IMPORTANT that the flanges are SEALED .. There is a lot of hydraulic Undermining that Will Occur During wild WEATHER TIMES .Don't Matter how much fill is on top of it Once occurring it will eventually compromise the WHOLE JOB . And then YA GOT TO DO IT ALL OVER AGAIN .!. You may speak with your Co raod dept. and pic their Brain of best possible sealer . I think encasing all pipe in 10 inches of concrete all around .. At the minimum Use Flowable Fill Concrete . I dont Have Any Confidence in the Carpet Idea in a CONSTANT flowing stream , Probably would pass muster for drainage ditches... Bottom line the Hydraulic work that Occurs During Rain events will Boggle Your Mind ,, DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE THE WRECKING ABILITY of this science ... and most of ALL GOOD LUCK

buickanddeere · Oct 27, 2010

The crossing here sometimes runs 20ft wide and 2ft deep. I put a 12" steel culvert down and then a couple of tandem dump truck loads of football sized stones.
I can drive over anytime with the tractor. The culvert lets the fish swim through at low water levels.

S2710 · Oct 27, 2010

Just lay them in with the broken part of the flange up and lay a bag of sacrete over the broken flange and put your dirt over and it will never leak

PJH · Oct 27, 2010

30 feet of culvert if you built a 1:1 slope on each side of the fill. 2:1 or 3:1 is more common. Assuming a flat flowline (which is rare) a 2:1 slope on each side of a 10' roadway would require 50' of culvert, and a 3:1 would require 70'.

The good thing about a 10' fill is - you can mow it easily with a sickle mower, no matter the slope. Assuming you have access from the toe of the slope.

Ray · Oct 27, 2010

We use those 3ft cement culvers.There pretty cheap if you buy seconds.I don't use the seals,
just put them together.I've got some with only a foot of cover that we installed 20 years ago.

John A. · Oct 27, 2010

Jacks, I will also tell you, you will need MUCH more of a Culvert than those small concrete ones. I appalude your thinking here though.
A single 36 or 48 in culvert will carry more water than 2 concrete 24 in.ers.
The rub occurs when in the rainy season or snow melt time when the little 6in deep by 2 ft wide creek get 2 ft wide by 4 ft deep and you are backing water up, up stream with the 8 ft. berm over the culvert.
If it washes out you will have a larger problem than your first problem of just trying to cross the creek. You need to know how high and wide that creek get at it's biggest!!!!!!
Ask around the local construction and road construction co. see if any one has a decent 3ft or 4 ft X 25 ft long Used culvert they would sell.
We bought 12 or so 4 yrs ago for $100 ea.
My creek is a wet weather problem from 12 ft wide and 4 in deep to 15 ft wide and 5+ ft deep . Washed out 3 , 3ft X 25 ft long, had 3 to 4 ft of calachie road base over the culverts.
Next time, will add one more culvert and maybe a concrete cap over the road base. To keep it from washing out..
My Suggestions ....Over Engineer This project!!! or you do not have to re-address this problem. If you do not, it will wash out, only to have to fix it again later and the working conditions may not be as ideal as when you plan to do the project the first time. Hope this helps.
Later,
John A.

old · Oct 27, 2010

No see your getting to technical for me LOL. I.E. I was just giving the guy an example not saying 100% how it had to be done because depending on what all he uses he can get by with less or more. I'll not go into on a post like this how it has to be done since I'm not there to do it and by the way I did just that type of work at one time and there are a lot of roads in my area I helped build

John in MD · Oct 28, 2010

Don't worry, when the Corps of Engineers catches you, they will tell you what will work. They have juristiction over all waters of the United States and you need their approval first.
Don't ask me how I found out.

bjb in TX from Ne · Oct 28, 2010

For smaller streams the Corps may not care, but the state's department of natural resources might. They usually will govern any waterway that are too small for the corps.

JDemaris · Oct 28, 2010

The idea of someone having control of all flowing water in the USA is not entirely true. Some agencies have that "option", that's all. If you call your conservation district office (or whatever they call themselves), they should have a juridiction map of streams and tell you what water-ways are listed, and therefore which ones are not. I've been through this many times. If not listed, then your stream is exempt. If it IS listed, some agency is claiming the right to tell you what you can do, and what you can NOT do. Culverts in creeks can get VERY complicated. Even small creeks that completely dry out in the summer, can cause massive floods during high-rain if culverts are not suited for the over-flow. A few years ago, here in NY, a 12" wide creek that was culverted by State Engineers - cause the Interstate highway to wash-out and two tractor-trailer drivers got killed. Since then, FEMA has gotten involved, and getting permission to culvert any creek around here is near impossible - without spending a huge amount of money.

camju · Oct 28, 2010

Save yourself the hassel and buy a load or 2 of septic stone (2-5 inch).make a wide spillway and you will always be abble to drive through exept in spring if it gets 4 feet deep.The other way is pour it with concrete.A good spillway will never cause water back up or washout.

JML755 · Oct 28, 2010

Here in Michigan, most small "creeks" or "streams" are actually "drains" that are under the jurisdiction of the County Drain Commissions. Our Drain Commission required me to put in a correctly sized culvert. I wanted to put 2- 24" side by side for a low profile, but they've got non-round culverts (forget the actual name) that meet their requirements. I agree with the others that those culverts with 8-10' of fill on top won't see much load, but make sure your seams aren't leaky. Typically, 1 foot of fill is all that's required over a properly sized/constructed culvert. One thing I would add would be rip-rap between the culvert and the banks on the upstream side, at least, both sides preferable. Broken concrete works good.

jacks · Oct 28, 2010

Thanks for the helpful replies and comments. I have watched this location over the last five years, and the flow does not increase significantly even during hurricanes and severe rains which cause flooding in the region. It is primarily spring fed. I also had the forestry dept calculate the culvert size needed, and they only calculated 18". Because the stream bed takes a very gradual bend in this area, I am now thinking about using HDPE pipe. I believe that it may be possible to have plastic pipe approximate the natural bend in the stream bed- also it would not have the sealing problem that I would have with concrete. I have already received permission from the forestry department to proceed, I just have to notify them before starting. In our state, if the crossing was to be used for other purposes, there would be multiple approvals required as some of you mentioned.

Pycoed · Oct 28, 2010

Twinwall plastic is the complete answer for this sort of application. I installed 4 culverts for crossing points across deep ditches on my marsh last spring. As long as you have at least one diameter of pipe thickness of fill above it (i.e. 3 feet of fill for a 36" pipe) they will stand terrific loads. In one smaller ditch I put an 18" pipe & only about 6" fill over it & there is zero deformation while driving over it with 2 tons of tractor plus about 1 ton .
In UK they come in 20 ft lengths with separate couplers.

culvert for stream crossing

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