John T Country Lawyer

This is the only place that I can go for a good source of disinterested parties.

First of all I assure you that there was no abuse of any kind on the part of this lady, to be known as (A) .
(B) Is accuser

(B) is a self admitted schizophrenic, and Bi Polar
(A) has worked most of 50 years working with senior citizens and even according to her employer was totally incapable of any kind of abuse.

DPW woman had (A) fired only for what she was told by Lady (B) and ask two other people in there both not really capable mental wise and no other staff were interviewed.
DPW only went to employer and told them that (A) wasn't allowed back in building as an employee.
Employer had to let her go even though they them selves thought it not to be possible , but in order to comply with state rules they let her go.

My question is what , how or where does a guy start, to turn around DPW decision.

Pa Has a 2 year statute of limitations

Don't want to sue employer for wrongful discharge and I don't see a case there anyway. as they tried to stand up for her.

I had to look up "Pennsylvania DPW" to figure out what you're trying to say. I think I figured it out so I'm going to try and and re-tell it. You tell me if I got it wrong.

The woman who was fired worked for a contractor to the state of PA Department of Public Welfare at some sort of state-run home or hospital. A resident of the home with mental problems reported that the worked had abused her. As a result, the state told the worker's employer she could no longer work there, effectively firing her.

IANAL, but employees of contractors have essentially no rights against wrongful discharge by the company who contracts for their services. And forget about any government agency admitting a mistake. Hopefully she can collect unemployment.

Employer says "Gee A, we know it's not right but our hands are tied. We have to conform. if there was another way, we'd be all over it. So very, very, very sorry. When the door closes it's, YES, another pension we won't have to worry about.

Dave

I expect that there is more to this story but even if there is not, Pennsylvania is s so-called right to work state.

A wrongful discharge action will not succeed while convincing the DPW to reverse there decision will likely be both futile and frustrating.

Dean

Roy, Often I tell people I would need more facts before I can provide any worthwhile professional legal opinion, however from what you say THE FACTS DONT MATTER ALL THAT MUCH (ASSUMING THERES NO EMPLOYMENT CONTRACT TO PROTECT THE WORKER, see below) and to answer your question, I dont see much if any legal recourse against the DPW, theres perhaps more of a political and who you know solution, but no legal cause of action against the employer, ESPECIALLY the DPW, jumps right out at me.

DISCLAIMER I DO NOTTTTTTTTTTTTT PRACTICE EMPLOYMENT LAW SO DONT PLACE MUCH VALUE ON WHAT I SAY HERE OR ON OTHER OPINIONS HERE, EMPLOYMENT LAW IS COMPLICATED AND IT DEPENDS ON THE LABOR LAWS OF YOUR STATE AND IF THERE WAS ANY SORT OF EMPLOYMENT CONTRACT !!!!

Even that, I dont see any privity of contract between the employee and the DPW !!!!!!!!!!!!! If the employeee worked for a private contractor, the employee "probably" HAS NO ACTION WHATSOEVER AGAINST A THIRD PARTY THE DPW absent very limited exceptions, thats a tough nut to crack !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Heres the deal, absent a union contract or any private employment contract, a standard employee works under the doctrine of "employment at will" When people call me and complain they were fired unjustly and its not fair and how can the boss do that, I ask them........."Do you think you have the right to quit your job for no reason whatsoever i.e. for no cause" They respond "HECK YES I HAVE THE RIGHT TO QUIT ANYTIME I WANT AND I DONT HAVE TO GIVE THE BOSS ANY REASON WHATSOEVER" to which I then ask them "Then why cant the boss up n fire you for no reason or cause even if its unfair or unjust"?????? Then they understand their employment (absent an employment contract) is "employment at will" and regardless how unfair or unjust or irrational theres no legal recourse if they are fired....... Absent an employment contract and providing the labor laws of your state somehow protect the employee ITS NOT ILLEGAL TO FIRE SOMEONE REGARDLESSSSSSSSSSSSSS IF FAIR OR UNFAIR OR WITH OR EVEN WITHOUT CAUSE,,,,,,,,,,,,,

In many private or union employment contracts, an employer must SHOW CAUSE for a firing i.e. one cant just be fired for no reason at all, the employer MUST SHOW CAUSE and if not a legal cause of action may be available for the employee... THATS A QUESTION AN EMPLOYMENT LAWYER IN YOUR JURISDICTION NOTTTTTTTTTTTT ME AND LIKELY NOT ANYONE HERE CAN ANSWER WITH MUCH AUTHORITY OR EXPERTISE.

NOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW an option that may be available for the fired employee:::::::: There have been cases where there was no employment contract (its employment at will no cause needed for firing) buttttttttttttttttt the employee was provided a pamphlet that contained certain employer rules and policies AND A JURY FOUND SUCH WAS SUFFICIENT TAKING IT OUT OF EMPLOYMENT AT WILL AND INDEED THE EMPLOYER MUST SHOW CAUSE FOR A FIRING !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! But thats very fact sensitive and very dependant upon what that pamphlet said so dont get too excited

Another thing is the DPW is just covering their A$$ as advised by their attorneys to avoid any potential liability and a team of horses isnt going to get them to change regardless how may lawyers and how much money you throw against them

IT WOULD BE AN UPHILL BATTLE AGAINST THE GOVERNMENT and be very expensive and its NOTTTTTTTTTTT any case I would take because I hate to charge a ton of bucks for all the hard work in a case I dont see I could win AND ADD TO THAT THE EMPLOYEE DIDNT WORK FOR NOR HAS ANY PRIVITY OF CONTRACT WITH THE DPW, they are gonna have a hard time finding a Court of law to side with them against the DPW whom they dont work for REGARDLEES EVEN IF THE DPW BROKE ALL KINDS OF LAWS !!!!!!!! The one who can sue the DPW is one with whom they have a contract NOTTTTTTTTTTT OUTSIDERS.

Again, I do not practice labor law and am unfamiliar with your states laws and even though I said the facts dont matter that much, ONE SHOULD NEVER SAY NEVER so seek local professional expert opinions but for free advice here (and its worth just what you paid me lol) I just dont see any viable economically reasonable way to legally force the DPW to help the employee of an outside private company...SORRY

John T Country Lawyer in Indiana and nottttttttttttttttt an employment lawyer

"self admitted schizophrenic, and Bi Polar .."

And working for the Welfare Department ??

Are you sure you aren't talking about my ex-wife?

Even though she had a life-history of mental illness, she went to work as a Welfare and Child Services Investigator. Then got her Masters Degree and MSW Certification (Masters in Social Work). Then, caused many people to lose their jobs by making unfounded judgements and reports. She is now "retired" due to mental disability, but still phones in "tips" on people in homes and workplaces.

In your situation, if no contract and an "at will" state - nothing to be done. You can fire anybody as LONG as it's not against any feature that's protected. That is, you can fire for NO stated reason - but - if a reason IS stated, it better be a correct one. Last I checked, you can't fire because someone is fat (now a disability), not because of religion, color, etc. The list grows everyday.

Next time someone asks, or you wonder, why there are unions, and why anyone would ever join one, re-read this thread...

You are against the concept of an "at will" environment - where a worker can quit whenever he/she wants, and a boss can fire whenever he/she wants? Seems fair to me. Doesn't always work fairly, but neither does life. Union practices, overall, are certainly unfair to the general and larger, non-union public and taxpayer-base.

And somehow, having a Union to make it near impossible of fire someone, even when caught in the act working against the employer, or found to be incompetent - is the best way to go?

People in all walks of life can be good, bad, corrupt, fair, etc. Unions are run by people, just like small businesses are run by people.
Bad and good in both, but Unions are larger and more powerful then individual business owners - so who do you think actually does the most harm?

Yeah, silly rhetorical question.

As some say, if a state has freedom to quit a job, freedom to fire employee's, then there is not much to do about that situation.

The bothersome part is the stain on the record; the wrongful accusation.

_That_ would sure chap my hide.

I'll guess the layers of govt will protect the goofballs, and not help you clear that up any without condiserable cost; and no real 'help' at the end of it anyhow.

Big govt.

My sister got into a bit of a different, but similar situation in the education field. 'Big union' was no help at all, and sis was actually a treasurer of the local. But, they were just like big govt - collect the taxes or dues, and not do anything to help 'real' people.

Sorry.

--->Paul

What the others said. However B having mental problems doesn't qutomatically disqualify what someone says. You didn't say what the accusations were and if B was having a schizo episode at the time. You weren't there apparently so how does anyone know if there is any validity to the accusations.

Suspected abuse, just like suspected all types of harrassment, isn't tolerated anymore. Just makes lawsuits even worse. State agencies with all kinds of public watchdogs watching them, tend to overreact as they are full of overreactors who play it safe instead of using sound judgment and JD's ex is a good example.

I told a judge a while back that I had a case based on implied contract from the policies and due process procedures in the employment phamplet and his flippant response was that I had an implied case. Implied contract is valid law but sometimes judges do what judges want to do.

Regarding unemployment, in my state A would be considered fired for cause on statutory grounds and be denied compensation should the employer contest it which they usually do so some silver tongued lawyer can't use that against them plus have it go against their unemployment rating and what they have to pay the state.

Agreed, that in this situation the person loses more than a job...

And I'm not saying unions are a cure-all, or that they will always protect a person in a situation such as this. But when you've got no recourse at all, having someone claim they can and will protect you is tempting enough to get people to sign up. And I have immediate family that works in the school system as well, there is a case going on right now very similar to the OP story, the only reason the wrongly accused person still has their job is their union. So like 'em or not, it's sometimes a good thing there's something to make the employer hesitate before taking the easy way out and ruining someone's reputation and maybe career.

WITH THE NOTED EXCEPTION OF MY NEIGHBOR AND FRIEND JOHN T COUNTRY LAWYER I will say generely an honest man between two lawyers is like a fish between two cats

Thanks for that exception Neighbor, after all Im just a semi retired Country Lawyer right lol Didnt get in this racket untill well AFTER I had a "real life" as a farmer and engineer n small trucking business owner among other gigs. Id sure hate to have to do this for a livin, its dirty n fighting n full of politics and hey I dont even play golf nor belong to any Country Club, who would want me anyway lol

John T

I disagree with your depiction of unions. The last union job where I worked, plenty of folks who were non-working workers and general thorns-in-the-side of the company were fired. AS LONG AS THE EMPLOYER FOLLOWED THE PROCEDURES IN THE CONTRACT, the union had no problem with getting rid of these workers. And there generally are procedures spelled out in the contract.

Now, maybe our local was the exception to the rule; I can't say, because I haven't worked many union jobs. But the union and the company negotiated an annual profit-sharing plan into the contract...so it was in the best interest of the WORKERS if the company made money, so that the bonuses could be paid. And most of the union employees were in favor of BIGGER profit-sharing bonuses, so they did what they could to keep the lines running and the product going out the door to the customer.

I tend to think of that as "enlightened self-interest," and if more unions looked at their jobs in that light, people wouldn't be so "down" on unions. But as I said, perhaps our local was the exception, rather han the rule.

Thanks to all that responded !!


No Lady was fired was a staff member in a boarding home /personal care home.

The accuser is a resident there .

always threatening that she would have their job if she didn't get immediate attention. for services such as coffee or cigarettes when there was 20 other residents that needs attention too.

The lady went to her case worker and filed a complaint that her being taken care of was not to her liking.

To make this stickier the same lady misses the one that got fired and when she goes to visit her Aunt always huggs and wants her to come back. and says she is soooo sorry she lied .

Employer only made the mistake of firing for a reason , rather than the "at will" clause, That I don't believe was on the applications till I pointed it out to them.

Lady that was fired grew up with the employers from childhood . I know they are upset because they had to do it


Case worker said that was reason enough alone to let her go ,because they would stand up in her defence for that reason alone.
In order to keep license they had to let her go,
and admit all she ever did was good for their business doing things above and beyond the call of her duty's tryng to make it as much of a home life to all there.

She is a victim of circumstance, and no where to turn.

And yes, I do know the problem first hand she is my wife, not a mean bone in her body!!

Only recourse I see is to file suite for wrongful discharge, as they used a reason that was not properly validated only at the county level, and A case worker decided to be Judge, Juror, and Hangman. and a report was turned into State.
Suing employers? I don't see a case there as the were ordered to do it against their will



I feel the case worker was wrong in her decision because no other staff was interviewed to check history of her work, relationship, and how well she took care of residents there.

There isn't one able bodied resident the don't meet her at the car when she pulls in driveway.

Lady that filed complaint is wheelchair bound ,but always has out stretched arms, to tell her she is sorry. She even said she was going to tell her case worker she lied , I don't know if that happened, but,
Do you suppose maybe a county worker may not want to admit she made a mistake ?

My comments as based mostly on the majority of unions in my State - which is New York. The majority of unions in New York work for the governments - state, county, and towns. Not the private sector. Union enrollment in anything else is WAY down, from 30-40 years ago. Just about all of these union workers are near impossible to fire, even when caught red-handed breaking the laws or their own rules. That goes for county social service workers, school teachers, and some of the police. We just had two local city cops get fired here, but it was a tremendously long procedure and many attempts were made to "keep it quiet." Two Oneonta City policemen were, while on duty, drinking and driving and having fun with young girls in their squad cars. In one instance, a young girl (who was drinking) got caught driving the police car, with the policeman sitting next to her (who was intoxicated). If that had been a private sector, non-union job - how hard do you think it would of been to fire those guys?

By the way, I was in the Teamsters Union (drove a truck) and the IBEW (line clearnace for electric company). I hated every minute of it, but that's just me. I didn't like being forced to join, or being forced to pay union dues, or having the Union pretend to speak for me when it came to giving support to politicians. I'm not big at being forced into "group mentalities."

When I worked as John Deere mechanic in Oneonta, New York, the Union tried to force it's way into our shop. My boss told them that if they succeeded, he'd close the business. Good for him. He was a chicken-farmer, Deere dealership owner, and self-made millionaire. He treated us well, and did not need a Union to screw things up.