Straight new steel roof on cockeyed old farmhouse

The subject of walking 6/12 pitch metal roofs was brought up a few posts down from this one. Here are two I just did and no way could any of us walk the 6"/12" pitch steel roof safely - even with the best and softest sneakers and warm/dry conditions.

This one is in the Adirondacks. 6/12 pitch (6" vertical rise/drop to the horizontal foot). I had to use a rope tied to my belt to help me keep my "footing." Later, when I went back to install solar panels, me and a friend (prof. roofer) tried to walk it and could not - without rope. We finally laid a ladder on the roof and tied it up there. It gave us steps to walk on while installing and wiring the solar panels.

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This one is an 1820 farm house that had some huge dips in the old roof. Not because the rafters were bad; more because the foundation sank near a foot over 100 years ago. So, I had to shim much of it up to get fairly straight lines - to put the new steel roofing on. House was originally wood shingled, then soldered-tin, then asphalt, and now painted steel. Note the pitch is exactly 5.5/12. I could walk it safely when the asphalt was there (if warm and dry). With the steel? I could walk if warm and dry, but not safely. I'd slide now and then. When cold or wet - forget it. I finished the job with a rope tied to me - which I used many times to keep me from sliding off. This house has five chimneys which aren't exactly fun to get flashed properly.

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and you did a good job, because I remember you posting picks of how much snow was on that roof last winter!!

Won't be any snow on there this winter.
I just built an addition with a 6/12 pitch. I found a rubber backed carpet runner about ten feet long and three wide. I rolled a 2x4 a couple turns in one end and nailed the carpet to it. Cut a couple holes in the carpet and tied two ropes through the holes and around the 2x4. The ropes went over the peak and to the ground and were tied to a stake. I could walk on the carpet fine.
I also set up a hay elevator at the eave so if I came sliding off I would land in the elevator.

The old house where I lived for many years had standing seam roofing, installed in 1921. It is 9/12 pitch. two story. I remarked to a friend that while painting the roof over the years, I had become ever more careful as the ground seemed to get harder each year. He told me the ground had become compacted due to repeated falls at the same place and I needed a new place to fall.

Nice job with the roof.I am a bit surprised that you didn't strip it first.

Vito

If I had a crew working with me, I would of stripped it. But I'm by myself and this is one-man job. If I'd stripped it, the rain would of trashed the inside of the house. I spent a month doing this job (off and on), of which it rained 2/3rds of the time. Even WITH the shingles left in place, we still got a little water damage from the screw and nail holes holding the purlin on.

It also was only a single layer of asphalt, so no weight problem with leaving it.

I personaly can't walk a 6/12 anymore as I'm getting old and fat. But the guys do all the time. They wear sneakers, and walk the screw line.

Dust is usualy a bigger problem when it comes to slipping. I always man the bottom, and I'm in charge of rescuing their dumb butts if they should fall.

Once my brother took a head first slid on a 4/12 that had some white frost on it. I was ready, but he knocked the wind out of me. I said next time I would just step aside because it hurt.

If it is a big roof, the guys legs get to hurting, then we use a ladder and toe holds.


I;m curious why some folks think you have to strip off the old shingles. I'm over sixty, and have never seen or heard of a old house roof failing because of weight. A metal roof is going to leak some day, and the shingles will help a little.

I like your solid valleys, it seems to be the best in my opinion. We usualy lay two 2 x 12s down the valley, then put winter guard on just in case.

Have you ever just screwed the steel right to the shingles and of course down to the sheeting underneath with no new cross pieces?

I walk the screw-lines also. But . . . not all metal roofs have exposed screws. The two roofs in the photos absolutely could not be walked safely. I suspect it's because of whatever new paint-coating they have. With the 5.5/12, I could walk it but I had to be ready for a slide, here and there. With the 6/12, not a chance. Brands are Metal Sales and Fabral, and like I said, I suspect the new coatings they're using is part of the problem. Believe it or not these new metal roofs, IF the correct color, qualify for a Federal energy tax-rebate. I have no idea why, but it might be the reason for a new type paint-coating.

Back when I was a grunt for a contractor, 40 years ago, I was instructed to only carry a straight-claw hammer in my belt. Why? To whack a hole in the roof and save myself in a slide. Can't say I ever had to try it - and it would be REAL difficult with steel or slate.

As far as shingle-stripping goes - many areas enforce a building code that only allows three layers of asphalt. Then you have to strip, unless you sneak in the job.

Biggest problem I had with the solid valleys in the photos was finding appropriate hardware. The 2X6s are ACQ treated wood. Not necessary; just my preference. I called Metal Sales and asked about their rubber-head screws and if they were corrosion-compatible. Took quite awhile to get an answer - which was "no." So, I had to special order some stainless steel rubber-head screws.

Nice job! Are you screening out the rodents?

You know, I put steel roofs on my barns and tool sheds, and the last tool shed a week ago was about the same pitch but only 14' high at the lower edges. They get steeper every time. I have to say that if the temp drops below about 70 on a bright sunny day, and you're not wearing soft rubber soles to grip the screw heads as you work your way up and across, you're in trouble. If I were 20 and 175 again, no problem. Now I'm 50 and 250, and not real easy going on the idea of falling.

You explained not doing a tearoff, and who knows so long as it never gets wet again, another layer of insulation. Hey, it is what it is, so is the glass half empty or half full? You did pretty good up there on Walton's mountain.

Mark

Many Code jurosdictions require a complete tearoff before steel is applied on required nominal 2X perlins no more than 2'OC, with min of 1.5" screws., but they allow a second layer of shingles.Go figure! When I was GCing I got shut down on a garage roof job. Had to remove the new steel and perlins,, we had in place strip the roof and start over. Was just glad it was small and that is what I was relating to in the previous post about the van load of parasites. If you are applying steel over shingles, make sure code enforcment agrees to let you!! Don't try to argue with code enforcement you will loose. In this same town a wealthy Albany NY lawyer built a lavish summer camp on an island in a small lake within the township He pushed the envelope beyond what the code enforcment oficer told him he could do. The town took him to court. The new "high priced camp" was demoed last winter while the ice was strong enough to support the demolition equipment and carry the debris back to shore.

ever try cougar paws, boots for roofing, have replaceable sole of some soft rubber with no heel, works good to help on moderately steep roofs, I use when inspecting roofs, of dry and clear, over 7/12 gotta have mechanical help from something, toe boards, belts, etc google cougar paws and should take you to their web sight, good to walk on roof, little weird on ground with out a heel, Mark

Only if I knew there was plywood underneath, at least 5/8" thick, I had special screws (special coarse threads for plywood), and I was fastening the roofing the "old way" via the raised ribs. Putting screws through the raised ribs is not recommended anymore, but does keep the panels from distorting when on imperfect surfaces.

Most if not all the companies now recommend fastening on the flat areas below the raised ribs. You need to get screws tight enough to seal, and if the surface is even a little uneven, the metal distorts. So, going over shingles is a problem due to their inherent unevenness. If there is board sheaving underneath the shingles, you can hit a gap between boards, a rot spot, a knot, etc. and wind up with a hole in the metal and no place a screw will grab. Using 1" or 2" boards allow a sure place to grab and a good uniform surface the entire width.

I've done plenty of steel roofs over new plywood, which works fine. You still need a min. of 5/8" though, and the special screws made for it.

As far as old houses go, at least in my area of NY, very few have plywood sheaving. It's usually poor quality, rough-cut 1" pine or hemlock boards (5/4) and lots of gaps between them, and many loose knots and rot-holes.

I'm not aware of a company that will guarentee a roof over shingles.

Theseompanies aren't dumb, every time you lay down 18 sheets, you just purchased another one if you bought it by the sqare. They go by the sqyuare, but the lap is not part of the deal.

Guarentees should always be written on soft paper so you can actualy use the paper for something. But it would no doubt be cheaper to just buy toilet paper. Most companies are selling you a piece of steel, and you are assuming it will not leak.

Most pole building pros will tell you to put the screw on the hump. Water doesnt run in the hump. Plus if you over tighten a screw in the flat it will leak instantly. I built buildings on the farm and always put the screw on the hump. If you dont over tighten it, it is better than on the flat. I have an 80x200 machine shed and 40x220 heifer shed. I know that the bigger companies in my area recommend the screw be put on the hump.

Hey jdemaris. I'm interested in your description of the ladder you installed, but didn't see it in any of the photos. On my own house I have one chimney, but it's a steep roof and I sweep the chimney 2 times a winter. I want to replace my asphalt shingles with steel, but I just can't see a way that I can do this without getting killed at least once a year. Did you just fasten an aluminum ladder on there somehow? I've been looking around for special steel roof ladder-panels and asking around, but nobody seems to be in the same boat as me.

I find that hard to believe now adays. Not unless what you are seeing is roofing installed with nails and NOT screws. I see new pole buildings going up all over the place, done by pole-building and roofing companies - not homeowners. All I've seen in the past few years do NOT install the screws on the raised ridges. That because the companies making the roofing only warrantee it if done the way they say to. I don't see anybody in my area of the northeast using nails anymore. Yes, they're faster and cheaper, so maybe somebody somewhere is still using them.

I'm one of the people that resisted the new recommendations of NOT screwing the humps for years. I'm not sure why it changed, but I suspect partly so the screws are less visable from a distance -and more attractive to homeowners. But also, by installing in the low areas, you can tighten the screws more without the metal distorting. I know there were many endurance tests done, and less leaks occured by NOT screwing the ribs. It is those tests that finally convinced me to use the newer method.

About leaking when you DO install in the lows? Nope. I've done many and not had a single leak of any consequence. Not unless someone broke off or loosened screws with a snow shovel in the winter. I've got them installed in unheated pole-barns and many heated homes. With open purlins and also on sheathed roofs. Fabral and Metal Sales both state clearly - screws used on raised ribs for sidewalls only and not roofs. I've been watching closely since many homes in my area and the Adirondacks are gettting new steel roofs. They shed snow much better then asphalt and that's probably part of the reason. I haven't seen a single one in years done with fasteners on the raised ribs.

Taken from the warranty paperwork from the company that makes the roofing (Fabral):

"where exisiting shingles will be left in place, new 2"X4" purlins should be fastened through the decking and into the rafters."

"The correct way to fasten steel panels with nails is to drive the nail through the top of the rib so the washer is compressed securely against the metal.
Wood screws with the combination metal and neoprene washers should be installed in the flat area of the panel adjacent to the ribs (not ON the raised rib). This will ensure a lasting, leakproof seal. "

Funny you ask that. I just came back from the Adirondacks and wood burning season has started. I saw many new ladders permanently installed to metal roofs that run to the chimneys. The ones I saw are aluminum and directly bolted to the steel roofs with stainless-steel brackets. You can't bolt aluminum directly to a steel roof because of the dis-similar metals create an electrical charge and create corrosion. Thus the need for stainless steel brackets in-between, same as used for mounting aluminum framed solar panels to steel roofs.

I also saw on on somebody's roof an old wooden ladder. I suspect it won't last very long.

By the way. Just in case you DO decide to put steel on your roof and use purlins underneath. I suggest you plot a path to your chimney and install extra wood underneath, vertically, for the whole run. That to keep the metal from buckling if you step in the wrong place, when travelling up and down to the chimney. It's easy to do, as long as you do it BEFORE the new steel is on. The steel roofs WILL buckle if you are heavy and have small feet, and step in the wrong place. It's all about PSI. Same goes if you rest inbetween purlins with one knee and put a lot of pressure on a small area.

I thought the code for limiting or forbidding old ashphalt or wood shingles under metal was developed to make it easier for the fireman to be able to douse the burning material inside. I am not above not following code on a DIY project but the code usually has a reason behind it. What about insurance? Is this code avoidance the reason why real estate sales persons demand an extra cost inspection to protect the unwitting buyer? Leo

If you want to cite build code, you're going to have to be specific as to WHAT code. Different states and different counties use different versions based on different years and are custom tailored. Last I checked, the 2010 Uniform Building Code in New York State (except New York City) is based on the International Code version of 2007 and with a few additions and changes.

Only mention of old roofs in my area (Otsego, Hamilton, and Jefferson Counties, NY) is about weight load and amount of layers. Three is allowed to stay, and no more.

Maybe different where you are, but without any specifics, I certainly cannot tell from here.

By the way, Uniform Building Code is not law. Just a suggestion that states and counties and pick and choose from. Even when adopted by a county, a code enforcement official can bend those regs any way he/she wants.

(quoted from post at 10:42:43 10/20/10) If you want to cite build code, you're going to have to be specific as to WHAT code. Different states and different counties use different versions based on different years and are custom tailored. Last I checked, the 2010 Uniform Building Code in New York State (except New York City) is based on the International Code version of 2007 and with a few additions and changes.

Only mention of old roofs in my area (Otsego, Hamilton, and Jefferson Counties, NY) is about weight load and amount of layers. Three is allowed to stay, and no more.

Maybe different where you are, but without any specifics, I certainly cannot tell from here.

By the way, Uniform Building Code is not law. Just a suggestion that states and counties and pick and choose from. Even when adopted by a county, a code enforcement official can bend those regs any way he/she wants.

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ere is mine, almost finished.....anybody can walk it, as long as they are a fly or lizard

As your probably know, any code-enforcement officer in New York can legally bend the written code to be more relaxed, or more restrictive. It is totally up to him or her, and good reason why NOT to tick one off I (althought I've done it many times). The Uniform Building Code is NOT law, just a suggestion.

Your comment on code is well taken and I think you have done a lot of good looking work to save that old house. A beautiful setting BTW!

My comment was not code related, I guess, I just remember talking to a fireman who said it is close to impossible to extinguish a blaze in the rafters without tearing up the tin roof. I imagine by that time the house is toast anyway. I like the look of that roof of yours, but you will have to get used to the racket that even a light rain will give. With those spaces and layers of asphalt shingles, it probably won't be too loud. There is sometimes a soothing sound to hear rain!.

I tore the top off a 1-1/2 story bungalow and built a complete second story for my growing family, reinsulated, rewired, replumbed, built my own 24 foot span rafters, worked off 40 extension ladders fitting plywood soffits, etc. Took better part of 35 years and the family had flown, but it was a way to stay out of taverns!

Again, you did a nice looking job on that old house. Leo

Just tryin' to help out here---

If anybody or a group of you are wanting practice putting a steel roof on a cockeyed old farmhouse, just let me know-practice all ya want til mine is all done. Show ya what a nice guy I am, I'll even let ya'll practice on the barn first, if ya like...

I was up on the stable roof to day.The asphalt shingles my son and I put on 30 years ago are completly shot.Most roofing going on here is metal because asphalt shingles are trash.I have an old ice house that has shingles that were old when I bought this place in 1966.The antique shop next door to me has never been reshingled since 1966 on the north side.The main barn was roofed with aluminum on the south side about 15 years ago.Ihe screws look to be in very good condition,They were put in on the peaks.We ran out of screws and switched to nails on the last 10 feet.the gaskets on the screws look good but the nail gaskets look thin and loose, the north side of the barn was done in aluminum in 1975 with nails on the peaks. no leaks.nailing on the flats depends on the gaskets,I wont do it.i have been putting on shingles since 1953 when they cost 6 bucks a square.

Well it sounds like you have used good judgement.

Vito

Morton puts the screws on the hump. So does Wick and they are pros. If they do it, then it is good enough for me. The do more R&D than you or I do.

Morton puts the screws on the hump. So does Wick and they are pros. If they do it, then it is good enough for me. The do more R&D than you or I do.

We Do alotta Steel Roofing And I usually instal the Screw in The (lump) ridge , after educational Discussion with those paying the Bill .FLATS will WORK fine as long as the wood does not weaken (HEAT TOASTER DRY BURNUP ),,. I have a 1/12(FLAT virtually ) pitch roof on my machine shed 38x55 lean to off the shop,,Built in 1987 , Using 1x6-12ruf cut cull lumber on 2ft centers over 32inch center Joists rafters , in order to run a ONGOING TEST , We fastened in the Flats , besides I knew I would Have to shovel snow off the Roof ,,GREAT results , Except for perhaps 5 leaks that have developed over the years , All in a BAD SECTION OF CULL Lumber (Knots,Split ,Crack ect. ) ,, One LEAK to ME even after 10 yrs,condemns the Practice of Screwing in the FLATS as UNrelieable, I label such Practices as a Unskilled Lazy Mans Copout

I don't know what "lazy" has to do with it. It's just as easy to install the screws either way. I can see calling the use of nails "lazy", maybe.

I just removed an entire roof I installed 10 years ago that was screwed in the flats. I found no evidence of leakage. This was to 5/8" plywood with a layer of "ice shield" underneath the steel, not raised purlins. Had to remove the roof to alter some of the rafter structure and re-installed. Good thing it was all screwed, otherwise I'd never been able to do it without damage.

I found that with the roofs I installed by screwing in the flats . . . often the seams wouldn't close completey until I added some screws in the high ridges anyway. I also like having screws on the high ridges when it comes to walking them with snow and ice on them. Easier to find and get a foot hold.

Regardless, all the major companies that make the roofing recommend screwing the flats. Nothing to do with "laziness", but maybe something to do with appearance? Seems when you screw in the flats, the screws aren't as visable from a distance.

Morton doesnt recommend screwing in the flats, nor does Wick. I would say you might be wrong.

(quoted from post at 00:36:13 10/22/10) Morton doesnt recommend screwing in the flats, nor does Wick. I would say you might be wrong.

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ueller Buildings
http://www.muellerinc.com/downloads/rumanual.pdf

(quoted from post at 23:16:59 10/20/10) [b:6be6390236]Morton[/b:6be6390236] puts the screws on the hump. [b:6be6390236]So does Wick and they are pros[/b:6be6390236]. If they do it, then it is good enough for me. The do more R&amp;D than you or I do.

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Morton doesnt recommend screwing in the flats, nor does Wick. I would say you might be wrong.

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:lol: :lol: :lol:

Pretty much describes quality in my opinion? :shock:



Nails, leadheads and now the silly neoprene washered ones go on the highs. (so when the nail starts backing out you have less chance of water from up the roof running into the hole)

Screws are in the lows. You cinch them tight but not so tight the washer is damaged. A screw won't back out with the expanding and contracting of the lumber or steel and can be replaced easily if damaged when installing. On another note...you do put a stitch screw on the lap highs that doesn't extend to the purling or lathing (metal sheet to metal sheet). It won't leak if proper screw is used and sealants are used correctly. Any errors in screw location should be caulked with a quality sealant.