Winter's around the corner. It got me to thinking... what is the best vehicle you can buy off a dealer lot for driving in deep snow? I'm not talking about modified vehicles... only factory stock. I presume it would be a pickup, right? A locking rear differential would be a big plus, I would think. Or even a limited slip or locking front. As far as I know only the Dodge Power Wagon (locking front and rear) and Ford Raptor (locking rear) offer these items from the factory. I think Hummers do as well. What about Ford and Chevy? Do they have anything comparable? And what about in a half ton model? Besides the Raptor... anything? Are there any SUVs, large or small, that would equal a truck in snow? Just curious. So, if you had to buy a new snow vehicle for severe winter duty what would you choose and why?
- Thread starter sodly
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Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
hate to jump on you're post but don't know any other to ask in a seprate post. fsrm all my life but on massey harris what is ment by [leftparen,rightparen thsnks
I have a 2500HD with duramax and a very aggressive all weather tire. Last winter had some pretty big storms for Virginia and I was surprised how well it did. Was able to push through snow piles the height of the hood--pile left by the plows--I thought it would break the plastic parts in the front but they held.
The truck is 4X4 and the tires are 285 X 16. The key, after reasonably skinny tires, is weight. I had about 600 to 800 lbs of sand in the bed and snow loaded to the cab roof.
The truck is 4X4 and the tires are 285 X 16. The key, after reasonably skinny tires, is weight. I had about 600 to 800 lbs of sand in the bed and snow loaded to the cab roof.
Sean Feeney
Well-known Member
I know a lot of people in snow country swear by their Subaru .
Ken Macfarlane
Well-known Member
Whatever has the highest overall ground clearance, not just
under the diff. Once it starts dragging in heavy snow you're
done.
A unimog with its drop boxs at the wheel would be really good.
ford or dodge 1/2 ton with the tallest optional tires or a Jeep
Rubicon with the largest tire option is probably the best.
1 ton's have huge axles that drag in deep snow. A lot of the IFS
rigs have lower control arms that drag.
If you're just talking about highway driving, rigs with lockers are
terrible. Have to drive so carefully, and when the arse end breaks
loose, look out.
under the diff. Once it starts dragging in heavy snow you're
done.
A unimog with its drop boxs at the wheel would be really good.
ford or dodge 1/2 ton with the tallest optional tires or a Jeep
Rubicon with the largest tire option is probably the best.
1 ton's have huge axles that drag in deep snow. A lot of the IFS
rigs have lower control arms that drag.
If you're just talking about highway driving, rigs with lockers are
terrible. Have to drive so carefully, and when the arse end breaks
loose, look out.
Foghorn Leghorn
Member
A large SUV is better than a pickup in my opinion. You need the extra weight that is more evenly distributed. Pickups are too light in the back if empty. A Ford Expedition would likely be among the best you can get.
Depends.
If you are driving on road the best vehicles you can buy are the AWD crossovers. They actually have power going to all 4 wheels and can be driven at highway speeds while still locked in 4X4. They are built with "flex" in the drivetrain to allow them to do so without damaging the powertrain. ABS braking ensures the tire with the most grip gets the most power directed to it.
Any "traditional" 4x4 like a Ford F150 will have issues with being driven at highway speeds while locked in 4X4. The owners manuals advise you not to do so - even the one for the Ford Raptor. The mechanical drive while good for off roading to get through pastures and fields will cause significant wear to the powertrain and tires if driven much at road speed.
As you noted few pickups have locking differentuals front and rear. But even the most base 4WD pickup models in Ford, Dodge and Chevy are offered with limited slip front and rear axles but but I don't think any are offered with true "locking" axles. Limited slip in most new trucks means that while spinning one tire will spin 2 revolutions for every 1 revolution of the tire on the opposite end of the axle. Some go as far as 3:1 slip, mainly to make the truck more "streetable". A 1:1 can be made from over the counter parts, but will be very hard on the drivetrain.
If you are driving on road the best vehicles you can buy are the AWD crossovers. They actually have power going to all 4 wheels and can be driven at highway speeds while still locked in 4X4. They are built with "flex" in the drivetrain to allow them to do so without damaging the powertrain. ABS braking ensures the tire with the most grip gets the most power directed to it.
Any "traditional" 4x4 like a Ford F150 will have issues with being driven at highway speeds while locked in 4X4. The owners manuals advise you not to do so - even the one for the Ford Raptor. The mechanical drive while good for off roading to get through pastures and fields will cause significant wear to the powertrain and tires if driven much at road speed.
As you noted few pickups have locking differentuals front and rear. But even the most base 4WD pickup models in Ford, Dodge and Chevy are offered with limited slip front and rear axles but but I don't think any are offered with true "locking" axles. Limited slip in most new trucks means that while spinning one tire will spin 2 revolutions for every 1 revolution of the tire on the opposite end of the axle. Some go as far as 3:1 slip, mainly to make the truck more "streetable". A 1:1 can be made from over the counter parts, but will be very hard on the drivetrain.
Ford will go through more snow than a chevy.It has something to do with how they are built,(Chevy goes up onto the snow then falls through and ford stays strait and rams right in) not because I'm a ford man cause I aint.My brother and his friends proved this 2 years ago when he broke his back snowmobeling.They got 2 chevys stuck and the ford made it through to pic him up and get him to the hospital.They went back and pulled out the chevys with the ford and did some snow bogging just to prove the point.That said I had a 1996 caravan with winter tires and I could out drive a chevy 4X4 on the lake but he had cheap tires that where 80% gone.My drive way gets icy and snowed over bad and it's a good hill no 2 wheel drive truck with out GOOD tires can make it up.I always liked to rub it in to my older brothers that they didn't no how to drive.They all have 4X4's now and I still have my van.Good winter tires on a poor vehicle will get you through alot of snow and mud but bad tires won't get you through on a good vehicle. I would buy on what you like and have good service with and get good tires.
What are you calling deep? If two feet or more, you'd better get a log skidder with bear-paw chains.
Deep snow needs ground clearance. Other then not having much ground clearance, a Subaru 4WD or AWD wagon will go places most full size 4WDs will not.
Pickups are especially bad in ice.
I live on top of a steep mountain and our road is dirt. So, it rarely gets plowed, never gets salted. I see new trucks, crossovers and SUVs either get stuck - or go off the road and land in the woods. Happens every winter, all winter. Especially during hunting season.
I don't know what you situation is, but on ice and snow I'm more concerned about stopping or keeping control when coming down hills or around curves - then going in the snow.
For bad roads, the last thing I'd want to be driving is a rear-wheel-drive pickkup truck, or a fake Humvee want-to-be Hummer which is just a Suburban dressed up to look like something it's not.
I will say that the little Ford Escapes in AWD version handle bad conditions very well. They offer a nice compromise. Front wheel drive (with AWD assist), tires not so large that they mess up handling in ice, closed-suburban type body for good weight distribution, etc.
When I know I have to drive in deep snow and icy conditions, I use an old diesel K5 Blazer with chains on all four wheels.
By the way, I wouldn't put to much conficence in locking differentials. They work well in some types of road conditions, and can make things worse in others. Traction-control can accomplish virtually the same thing but with more stability. Electronically applies brakes to the wheel with the least traction - just as you would with your foot on a farm tractor.,
Deep snow needs ground clearance. Other then not having much ground clearance, a Subaru 4WD or AWD wagon will go places most full size 4WDs will not.
Pickups are especially bad in ice.
I live on top of a steep mountain and our road is dirt. So, it rarely gets plowed, never gets salted. I see new trucks, crossovers and SUVs either get stuck - or go off the road and land in the woods. Happens every winter, all winter. Especially during hunting season.
I don't know what you situation is, but on ice and snow I'm more concerned about stopping or keeping control when coming down hills or around curves - then going in the snow.
For bad roads, the last thing I'd want to be driving is a rear-wheel-drive pickkup truck, or a fake Humvee want-to-be Hummer which is just a Suburban dressed up to look like something it's not.
I will say that the little Ford Escapes in AWD version handle bad conditions very well. They offer a nice compromise. Front wheel drive (with AWD assist), tires not so large that they mess up handling in ice, closed-suburban type body for good weight distribution, etc.
When I know I have to drive in deep snow and icy conditions, I use an old diesel K5 Blazer with chains on all four wheels.
By the way, I wouldn't put to much conficence in locking differentials. They work well in some types of road conditions, and can make things worse in others. Traction-control can accomplish virtually the same thing but with more stability. Electronically applies brakes to the wheel with the least traction - just as you would with your foot on a farm tractor.,
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
Years ago my brother had a '66 Beetle that was pretty impressive in our NE WI snow....
Glenn F.
Glenn F.
One option I hadn't considered was a Jeep... maybe a Grand Cherokee or a Wrangler. Jeep has multiple different AWD systems, both part time and full time. From what I can gather their Quadradrive II full time system is their best with it's electronically locking front and rear diffs. It only comes on a very select few top models. Wonder what kind of mileage it gets. Does anyone have experience with this system?
I also hear lots of praise for Subarus but I think most people don't realize that they also come with a variety of AWD systems... some better, some worse. Unless you get a 6 cylinder or a 4 cyl with a manual you get the least effective AWD system, or so it seems to me. Since the vast majority of Subarus are probably 4 cylinder automatics, most folks probably get the less effective system without even knowing it. On the plus side, Outbacks have 8 or 9 inches of ground clearance.
I also hear lots of praise for Subarus but I think most people don't realize that they also come with a variety of AWD systems... some better, some worse. Unless you get a 6 cylinder or a 4 cyl with a manual you get the least effective AWD system, or so it seems to me. Since the vast majority of Subarus are probably 4 cylinder automatics, most folks probably get the less effective system without even knowing it. On the plus side, Outbacks have 8 or 9 inches of ground clearance.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
All I know is that every year I end up pullin out everything from minivans to suburus to full size pick ups to civics with my old wrangler here in NE Ohio.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Some new vehicles apply the brakes on the spinning
wheel.
Tall narrow tires with the winter symbol on the
side will make the most difference.
Every winter we see dopes with wide monster
mother mudder tires upside down in the ditch.
wheel.
Tall narrow tires with the winter symbol on the
side will make the most difference.
Every winter we see dopes with wide monster
mother mudder tires upside down in the ditch.
Brian Jasper co. Ia
Well-known Member
Whatever you buy, like on a pickup or SUV, make sure one axle has positraction with 4X4. There have been times that my full size Chevy truck with open rear diff has gotten stuck and my wife's Pathfinder that has posi in the rear axle didn't.
I suspect the short wheel base, softer springs, and better weight distribution of the Pathfinder had much to do with it. The suburban-type body style with rear seats puts weight on the rear wheels much better then a pickup truck.
My little crappy Subaru wagons with open-differentials have passed many 4WD pickups that were stuck (or off the road laying in the woods.
Any full size pickup I've ever driven on bad roads was awful, unless the back is heavily loaded down.
An open differential gives power to both drive wheels fine most of the time. Does worse on uneven traction conditions, and worse yet in a pickup truck with hard springs.
A locking differential, under certain conditions, especially when climbing well-crowned hills, can throw you right off the road if both wheels start to spin at once. I had an 86 S15 Jimmy for two winters on my hill. The posi-rear made it impossible to get the vehicle started from a stop when on ice point up the hill. I finally got rid of the posi and put in an open-differential and it worked much better.
My little crappy Subaru wagons with open-differentials have passed many 4WD pickups that were stuck (or off the road laying in the woods.
Any full size pickup I've ever driven on bad roads was awful, unless the back is heavily loaded down.
An open differential gives power to both drive wheels fine most of the time. Does worse on uneven traction conditions, and worse yet in a pickup truck with hard springs.
A locking differential, under certain conditions, especially when climbing well-crowned hills, can throw you right off the road if both wheels start to spin at once. I had an 86 S15 Jimmy for two winters on my hill. The posi-rear made it impossible to get the vehicle started from a stop when on ice point up the hill. I finally got rid of the posi and put in an open-differential and it worked much better.
cadet trooper
Well-known Member
Some of the most treacherous weather is what most midwesterners and mountain people call is transition weather which is when it starts to rain then turns to freezing rain then starts to snow on top of ice. Limited slip or posi-traction is leathal in those conditions and calls for sensible driving or new style traction control. IMHO
chevytaHOE5674
Well-known Member
Get a good set of tires that are rated for the winter weather. Put some weight over the rear axle. Lock up the front and rear axle and then learn how to drive with the vehicle. Travel the appropriate speed for conditions and remember 4x4 may help you get going but it doesn't help you stop...
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
Most 4x4's come with limited slip differentials for the rear wheels. Posi-traction is just GM's term for a limited slip differential. There are locking differentials but these are an after market accessory. Dave
Best vehicle I ever had for winter driving was a Chevy awd Astro van with studded snows on it. If I remember right it had about the clearance of an S-10, and I think weighed better than 5000#.
I had to be at work 35 miles away at 1:30 AM, and around here bad days, once the school buses get the kids home they park the plows.
Many a night I went to work just because I wasn"t gonna go back through that crap trying to get home.
I had to be at work 35 miles away at 1:30 AM, and around here bad days, once the school buses get the kids home they park the plows.
Many a night I went to work just because I wasn"t gonna go back through that crap trying to get home.
Our 4 wheel drive Audi with real snow tires on, spanks any of the
4x4 Ford or Chevy trucks we've had. Until it gets too deep and
then the clearance will be the limiting factor. On fresh, light
snow, that's close to a foot with the Audi. The cars are much
better balanced than the trucks or something. The trucks will
snort and snarl their way up a snow covered hill, and the car sails
up it like it's a spring day. That's just what I've experienced.
4x4 Ford or Chevy trucks we've had. Until it gets too deep and
then the clearance will be the limiting factor. On fresh, light
snow, that's close to a foot with the Audi. The cars are much
better balanced than the trucks or something. The trucks will
snort and snarl their way up a snow covered hill, and the car sails
up it like it's a spring day. That's just what I've experienced.
Respectfully I will have to disagree with you. I have two friends that have brought their subarus out to the farm and they wont go through have the snow that my 4x4 truck will. I have a 2003 Dodge 2500, Cummins, 6 speed manual. They couldnt catch me on snowy roads either, and they had alot better tires than I did. But I respect your opinion.
Hoss In ME
Member
Sister has a new [09] Honda Element.full time 4wd,good on gas,removable seats,van type vehicle. Goes wicked good in snow.I;d check it out. Hoss
like others have said It depends on the type of driving. I have a Tacoma and I can't get it stuck. It will go anywhere in snow and ice, BUT don't try runing fast in 4WD it want's to switch ends on ya. The plus is it has shift on the fly 4WD. So I can shift in and out of 4WD as needed. It also has a true locking rear differential for really bad stuff. That is also electronic for use when you really need it. I have never used it. I also add as much weight as I can to the rear.
John M
Well-known Member
- Location
- Nunyafn business
Old buddy of mine had one of those little small Nissan 4x4s. His was the high end model, dont recall what they called it, but this thing went everywhere. His brother still drives it now, and has lifted it 3" and put bigger tires on it. granted it doesnt snow much here, but when it does hes out going wherever he wants.
#1, No Subaru - or any other car/truck is going to work well in snow-depths that exceed the ground-clearance. A full-size truck is always going to have more simply because it's bigger.
Note my comments were NOT about deep snow - which is not something I ever worried about much. I've driven very bad roads for many years and regard icy roads much more of a hazard/problem. Unless you are driving off the public highways - I'd be more concerned about flying off the road, rather then just enough traction to go forward.
#2 - Were your friend's Subarus 4WD or AWD? That makes a huge difference, and Subaru hasn't made a 4WD since 1992. If your friend's were driving Subarus that are 1993 or newer, the comparison is moot. Also note that even the older pre-1993 Subaru 4WDs - were only true 4WD if manual shift. Automatic versions had a very strange system that were not true 4WD except under hard-throttle.
If you brought your Dodge-Cummins down my road mid-winter, you'd probably land in the woods somewhere - unless you had chains on it. I've got a full size, 4WD extended cab diesel Dodge, along with a full size 4WD extended cab Ford F250 diesel. Both are virtual death-traps coming down steep icy roads. My old Subaru 4WD wagon with summer tires does much better. Probably because it's light, had great weight distribution, and small/thin tires. And, my K5 diesel Blazer (plow truck) works well even when the road is officially closed - but I keep chains on all four wheels.
Obviously my experiences differ from your's. I'm in central New York. I live on an unmaintained mountain top road. Also, for many years, I drove an on and off-road 4WD service vehicle for a John Deere forestry dealerhip and had to drive in some of the worse conditions possible. Mostly with either a 4WD International Scout or a Ford F350 4WD truck. Less often with a Ford 2WD Courier pickup.
Note my comments were NOT about deep snow - which is not something I ever worried about much. I've driven very bad roads for many years and regard icy roads much more of a hazard/problem. Unless you are driving off the public highways - I'd be more concerned about flying off the road, rather then just enough traction to go forward.
#2 - Were your friend's Subarus 4WD or AWD? That makes a huge difference, and Subaru hasn't made a 4WD since 1992. If your friend's were driving Subarus that are 1993 or newer, the comparison is moot. Also note that even the older pre-1993 Subaru 4WDs - were only true 4WD if manual shift. Automatic versions had a very strange system that were not true 4WD except under hard-throttle.
If you brought your Dodge-Cummins down my road mid-winter, you'd probably land in the woods somewhere - unless you had chains on it. I've got a full size, 4WD extended cab diesel Dodge, along with a full size 4WD extended cab Ford F250 diesel. Both are virtual death-traps coming down steep icy roads. My old Subaru 4WD wagon with summer tires does much better. Probably because it's light, had great weight distribution, and small/thin tires. And, my K5 diesel Blazer (plow truck) works well even when the road is officially closed - but I keep chains on all four wheels.
Obviously my experiences differ from your's. I'm in central New York. I live on an unmaintained mountain top road. Also, for many years, I drove an on and off-road 4WD service vehicle for a John Deere forestry dealerhip and had to drive in some of the worse conditions possible. Mostly with either a 4WD International Scout or a Ford F350 4WD truck. Less often with a Ford 2WD Courier pickup.
One comment about 4WD "not helping you stop."
It can be a big help in keeping a truck under control when coming down an icy hill. I do it many times in the winter when my hill is solid ice. On a true 4WD truck (standard transfercase with no diff between front and back) and without anti-lock brakes -if you lock the truck in 4WD, it will prevent any one wheel from locking up and losing traction when you apply the brakes.
Naturally, if the truck had anti-lock brakes front and back, this doesn't count. I have the anit-lock brakes unhooked on all my trucks.
It can be a big help in keeping a truck under control when coming down an icy hill. I do it many times in the winter when my hill is solid ice. On a true 4WD truck (standard transfercase with no diff between front and back) and without anti-lock brakes -if you lock the truck in 4WD, it will prevent any one wheel from locking up and losing traction when you apply the brakes.
Naturally, if the truck had anti-lock brakes front and back, this doesn't count. I have the anit-lock brakes unhooked on all my trucks.
In theory, it shouldn't want to walk around itself in 4WD IF the tires are correct. Front tires are supposed to be slightly larger diameter then the rear . . . OR . . . the gear ratio for the front is supposed to be slighly more aggressive. The idea is, the front drive is always supposed to be turning a hair faster then the back - and this way the front always pulls the vehicle straight ahead. If the front doesn't slightly overtake the rear, the car or truck in 4WD and high speed acceleration with want to walk-around.
On some vehicles and tire brands, all it takes to fix it is some extra air in the front tires.
On some vehicles and tire brands, all it takes to fix it is some extra air in the front tires.
I started driving 4 wheel drive pickups in 98. I haven't been stuck since. I live in Mi. Although I try to use a little common sense on where and when I go. I have had two dodge trucks and now drive a HD chev with 4 wheel, limited slip, and wrangler tires. I normaly throw a couple hundred pounds of weight in the back during the winter.
About applying traction to "wheels that grip." Yes, that makes a car or truck generally safer in general to moderate conditions. But, in the worst severe conditions, it usually works worse then a part-time 4WD setup. This is why I hate locking differentials. They tend to lock and send power to both drive wheels on an axle instead of just the one with the best traction. So, if both wheels break loose and spin, the vehicle will often veer sideways and go off the road. Not so bad on moderately flat roads. But, if you're trying to climb a hill and the road is crowned in the middle (like most are), that locking diff. can be a nightmare.
On the other hand, an open differential sends power to both wheels when traction is equal. But, if traction varies, the wheel with the worst traction gets the most power. This is why a soft suspension along with non-solid drive axles usually gives much better traction than a heavy springed vehicle with solid drive axles (e.g. many trucks and SUVs). I suspect this is whey older 4WD Subarus have always been so good. Soft springs, equal weight distribution, small tires, and NO solid axles. Traction stays pretty equal on all four wheels.
I don't want to make broad general statements since "4WD" and "AWD" don't really have any precise meaning. And today, with electronic braking controls, computers, etc. , many systems vary. If each wheel has an elentronic braking device and a slip-sensor, it's possible to always keep only the best wheels with power - by braking the one lesser traction.
Some AWD vehicle have ways of locking all four wheels in emergency situations, and some do not.
Generally speaking, AWD usually refers to a vehicle that can be driven on dry hard roads with all wheels engaged because it has a differential between the front and rear drive. 4WD does not and is intended for part-time use.
Now, specific to Subarus. Any true 4WD Subaru I've owned will do much better then any later AWD Subaru - in the worst conditions. No comparison. But, all is a trade-off. Nice thing about the later AWDs is you've always got assist going to all the wheels. It's not very strong if you get in a tough spot, but overall much nicer to use.
Many times when my steep hill is unplowed and covered with a foot of snow, my 4WD Subaru will go right up, and my AWD Subaru would get stuck.
Note my 4WD trucks will also go up fine. But what about coming back down? All my trucks are death-traps in icy conditions, even with four studded snows. My Subarus usually can come down fine, even with summer tires.
Also note, there are subtle differences over the years.
True 4WD Subarus only came with stick-shift. Mine has a five speed trans plus a hi-low range transfercase like a pickup truck. Production ceased with the Loyales around 1993. Legacys are differenet and only came in AWD. Same with Imprezas which are 2WD or AWD - and never 4WD.
Older Subarus called "4WD", but with automatic transmissions - are not true 4WD. They have a pressure-activated slip-clutch inside the transmission that separates the front from the back drive. Under low throttle, it allows slippage and under full throttle it gets more pressure and locks up. That has never made any sense to me. It is also a wear item and most with high miles don't work at all anymore.
Later AWD Subarus that I've owned apply some pressure to all four wheels much of the time, but not all the time. Works good in moderate snowing conditions and can be useless in severe conditions. Maybe some new ones have a manual lockup but I'm not aware of any. My newest is a 2000, so I haven't kept up with the latest.
My wife's parents just bought a new Ford Excape AWD and that DOES have a button you can push for "lock up" in very bad conditions. It locks the front and rear drived together and works very well.
Like I said earlier, AWD has no specific meaning. I've got a Chevy Astrovan AWD that has a viscous-clutch between the front and rear drive. No way to lock it and not very good in real bad conditions. I also have a 1999 AWD Dodge Grand Caravan that has an even more complex system that also does not ever have any true lockup.
By the way, my old 1960s John Deere 440 log skidder has a pretty neat setup. Has hydraulically activated locking differential operated by a foot pedal. I'd love to have a car or truck with the same - all under operator's control.
On the other hand, an open differential sends power to both wheels when traction is equal. But, if traction varies, the wheel with the worst traction gets the most power. This is why a soft suspension along with non-solid drive axles usually gives much better traction than a heavy springed vehicle with solid drive axles (e.g. many trucks and SUVs). I suspect this is whey older 4WD Subarus have always been so good. Soft springs, equal weight distribution, small tires, and NO solid axles. Traction stays pretty equal on all four wheels.
I don't want to make broad general statements since "4WD" and "AWD" don't really have any precise meaning. And today, with electronic braking controls, computers, etc. , many systems vary. If each wheel has an elentronic braking device and a slip-sensor, it's possible to always keep only the best wheels with power - by braking the one lesser traction.
Some AWD vehicle have ways of locking all four wheels in emergency situations, and some do not.
Generally speaking, AWD usually refers to a vehicle that can be driven on dry hard roads with all wheels engaged because it has a differential between the front and rear drive. 4WD does not and is intended for part-time use.
Now, specific to Subarus. Any true 4WD Subaru I've owned will do much better then any later AWD Subaru - in the worst conditions. No comparison. But, all is a trade-off. Nice thing about the later AWDs is you've always got assist going to all the wheels. It's not very strong if you get in a tough spot, but overall much nicer to use.
Many times when my steep hill is unplowed and covered with a foot of snow, my 4WD Subaru will go right up, and my AWD Subaru would get stuck.
Note my 4WD trucks will also go up fine. But what about coming back down? All my trucks are death-traps in icy conditions, even with four studded snows. My Subarus usually can come down fine, even with summer tires.
Also note, there are subtle differences over the years.
True 4WD Subarus only came with stick-shift. Mine has a five speed trans plus a hi-low range transfercase like a pickup truck. Production ceased with the Loyales around 1993. Legacys are differenet and only came in AWD. Same with Imprezas which are 2WD or AWD - and never 4WD.
Older Subarus called "4WD", but with automatic transmissions - are not true 4WD. They have a pressure-activated slip-clutch inside the transmission that separates the front from the back drive. Under low throttle, it allows slippage and under full throttle it gets more pressure and locks up. That has never made any sense to me. It is also a wear item and most with high miles don't work at all anymore.
Later AWD Subarus that I've owned apply some pressure to all four wheels much of the time, but not all the time. Works good in moderate snowing conditions and can be useless in severe conditions. Maybe some new ones have a manual lockup but I'm not aware of any. My newest is a 2000, so I haven't kept up with the latest.
My wife's parents just bought a new Ford Excape AWD and that DOES have a button you can push for "lock up" in very bad conditions. It locks the front and rear drived together and works very well.
Like I said earlier, AWD has no specific meaning. I've got a Chevy Astrovan AWD that has a viscous-clutch between the front and rear drive. No way to lock it and not very good in real bad conditions. I also have a 1999 AWD Dodge Grand Caravan that has an even more complex system that also does not ever have any true lockup.
By the way, my old 1960s John Deere 440 log skidder has a pretty neat setup. Has hydraulically activated locking differential operated by a foot pedal. I'd love to have a car or truck with the same - all under operator's control.
> Be sure to get tall and skinny like a 235/85/16
That's the size I run on my F-350 and while I can get around OK off road until I push snow with the axles, the wider tires used on newer trucks (285/75/16?) seem to do much better in deep snow. More packing and less sinking. When it comes to traction on ice/pack on roads, nothing beats a skinny tire though.
That's the size I run on my F-350 and while I can get around OK off road until I push snow with the axles, the wider tires used on newer trucks (285/75/16?) seem to do much better in deep snow. More packing and less sinking. When it comes to traction on ice/pack on roads, nothing beats a skinny tire though.
think that just about the best vehicle I've used /driven in snow and icey conditions is my wife's '97 Explorer V8 AWD.This thing moves through snow as if it's not there. This is in northern New York (Franklin county). It easily outperforms the jeeps , scout and current F 250 FWD I own or have owned. Regarding locking diffs.
: if you happen to be on a slick side hill with the diff. locked , the only way you're going is sideways.
Yes, I've found that out many times. But, just about every time I mention that problem with locking differentials, people squawk and say it's rediculous. That makes me think they've never really driven in such conditions with a locker.
I had a guy stop by my house last year in a brand new Chevy 4WD pickup with locking rear. All ice and snow. Well, big mistake for him to stop on a hill. When he tried to get going again, the truck just kept going sideways, off the road with the rear wheels spinning. The front of his truck kept trying to point straight since it had an open differenetial But the locked rear with both wheels spinning kept shooing sideways. I finally had to pull him up with my 1983 K5 Blazer (that has chains on all four wheels).
I had a guy stop by my house last year in a brand new Chevy 4WD pickup with locking rear. All ice and snow. Well, big mistake for him to stop on a hill. When he tried to get going again, the truck just kept going sideways, off the road with the rear wheels spinning. The front of his truck kept trying to point straight since it had an open differenetial But the locked rear with both wheels spinning kept shooing sideways. I finally had to pull him up with my 1983 K5 Blazer (that has chains on all four wheels).
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
I have Jeep Cherokee and my wife has a Subaru
Forester. The Forester will run circles around my
Jeep Cherokee on snow and ice.
Forester. The Forester will run circles around my
Jeep Cherokee on snow and ice.
chevytaHOE5674
Well-known Member
I drive on hills daily all winter long with my locking diffs and never have a problem. Sure it will tend to walk sideways but that is easy to fix by letting off the skinny pedal. Id much rather have 4 wheels receiving power and getting any bit of traction they can; than 2 tires with the least/no traction getting all the power.
Rod in Forfar
Member
When I replaced my '95 4Runner with a 2002 Tacoma a few years back, I was amazed at the light truck's ability to plane in snow. In 4 Low the 4 cylinder truck wouldn't come close to sinking through to the bottom of deep snow where I encountered it. I usually had an area of thin snow as a target before blasting through the deep stuff, but the only time I remember needing a tow was once coming out of our woodlot behind a 4WD tractor. It sank to the bottom and the Taco high-centred in the ruts.
Doug in Illinois
Member
As my handle says, I am a mailman. I have a 85
mile rural route in Illinois, grew up in Nebraska
where we got more snow (and ICE).
Stay away from the AWD. I had a Ford Aerostar AWD
that worked OK for the snow when I had a route
near Denver, CO for a while. But it was TERRIBLE
on ice, anything over 20 MPH you basically had no
control.
I have a RHD Jeep Cherokee I bought in April 2009,
it is a 1994. Not my first Jeep, my oldest is a
1949 Pickup. But, will tell you their "part time"
4wd is not much better than the AWD. I run mine
either in 4H or in 2H.
My wife used to have a KIA Sportage. High
maintanance car, was good in snow but lots of
front axle issues if 4wd used much.
My farm pickup is a 2001 Chevy 2500 4x4. Push
button 4x4. The "automatic" 4x4 doesn't always
read the road conditions quite right.
My opinion is to get a true 4x4. If I was to get
one just for a daily driver, not pulling any heavy
loads, probably a Toyota Tacoma or Rav4. The Rav4
is the next car my wife wants when I retire her
Chevy HHR to my mail route. DOUG
mile rural route in Illinois, grew up in Nebraska
where we got more snow (and ICE).
Stay away from the AWD. I had a Ford Aerostar AWD
that worked OK for the snow when I had a route
near Denver, CO for a while. But it was TERRIBLE
on ice, anything over 20 MPH you basically had no
control.
I have a RHD Jeep Cherokee I bought in April 2009,
it is a 1994. Not my first Jeep, my oldest is a
1949 Pickup. But, will tell you their "part time"
4wd is not much better than the AWD. I run mine
either in 4H or in 2H.
My wife used to have a KIA Sportage. High
maintanance car, was good in snow but lots of
front axle issues if 4wd used much.
My farm pickup is a 2001 Chevy 2500 4x4. Push
button 4x4. The "automatic" 4x4 doesn't always
read the road conditions quite right.
My opinion is to get a true 4x4. If I was to get
one just for a daily driver, not pulling any heavy
loads, probably a Toyota Tacoma or Rav4. The Rav4
is the next car my wife wants when I retire her
Chevy HHR to my mail route. DOUG
Doug in Illinois
Member
Forgot to mention, my mail route Jeep does have a 3 inch lift on it so the fact it will keep going isn't a fair comparison. DOUG
A true locking differential - which is basically no differential at all when engaged - can be fine if you have some way to control it.
These things are hard to discuss on general forums simply because the terms and phrases do not mean the same things to all people.
Cars and trucks can be had with many versions of limited slip differential, automatically engaged locking differentials, manually engaged locking differentials, governor lockers, clutch-driven limited slip, etc. Makes a big difference which one someone is actually talking about. Trucks with manual front hubs weren't usually made with anything but open diffs in front. No-hub trucks can be had with alternatives.
My complaint that has also been mentioned by others, it the type of "posi" that makes both wheels spin on it's own, out of the operator's control. And yes, once upon a time, "Posi" was a GM term, but not anymore - just like "Band Aid" was also once proprietary, but now generic.
Main thing is, if you are on an icy road and no matter how soft you hit the throttle - both wheels on one axle keep turning - you can get into real trouble. If you can shut it off until you get rolling, then it usually works fine. If it is governor control and only engages at a certain rolling speed, then again, fine. But, the majority on the road do not work that way.
These things are hard to discuss on general forums simply because the terms and phrases do not mean the same things to all people.
Cars and trucks can be had with many versions of limited slip differential, automatically engaged locking differentials, manually engaged locking differentials, governor lockers, clutch-driven limited slip, etc. Makes a big difference which one someone is actually talking about. Trucks with manual front hubs weren't usually made with anything but open diffs in front. No-hub trucks can be had with alternatives.
My complaint that has also been mentioned by others, it the type of "posi" that makes both wheels spin on it's own, out of the operator's control. And yes, once upon a time, "Posi" was a GM term, but not anymore - just like "Band Aid" was also once proprietary, but now generic.
Main thing is, if you are on an icy road and no matter how soft you hit the throttle - both wheels on one axle keep turning - you can get into real trouble. If you can shut it off until you get rolling, then it usually works fine. If it is governor control and only engages at a certain rolling speed, then again, fine. But, the majority on the road do not work that way.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
I put a Detroit Locker in my Grand National, makes for an interesting ride.
Throttle application from a stop sign while making a turn requires a gentle foot or the inside tire would howl.
I had to winter drive it a few years. Used true winter tires with the "winter" symbol. Rarely got stopped in snow or ice. Drove sideways up some hills with the steering wheel cranked.
Could pretty much steer the car with the throttle summer or winter.
Throttle application from a stop sign while making a turn requires a gentle foot or the inside tire would howl.
I had to winter drive it a few years. Used true winter tires with the "winter" symbol. Rarely got stopped in snow or ice. Drove sideways up some hills with the steering wheel cranked.
Could pretty much steer the car with the throttle summer or winter.
chevytaHOE5674
Well-known Member
I have a detroit locker in the rear of my truck (100% locked any time there is torque input) and a selectable locker up front (electric switch to go from open to 100% locked). I would not want a vehicle anymore that all 4 tires couldn't receive 100% of the power uninterupted.
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