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Fines for using red diesel in a haywagon

R

RalphWD45

Well-known Member
On july 26, a widby island, washington farmer, recieved a visit from an IRS agent who claimed that he had observed farmer Bob Engle, driving his haywagon on the state hiway. He asked to check the tank of the unit, and found red diesel fuel in it.When Mr Engle explained that the hay wagon was used only to transport hay from the field to the storage, and has no, nonfarm uses,the inspector, said I don't think that it would qualify. However a week later, Mr Engle was fined a total of $9000. I hope you boys quit taking your haywagons to town to buy groceries, and no dating in them!
 
Self propelled haywagon? IRS agent? where did this come from? If a DOT cop (not an IRS agent) stops you and checks the fuel in what I assume you mean is a hay truck (the haywagons I am familiar with are towed by tractors or occasionally a truck but don"t use their own fuel) and you have regular commercial plates (not farm plates) then you are screwed like Mr. Engle!
 
I think there might be a misunderstanding on who and what. It probably wasn't an "I.R.S." agent who came visiting. It was more like the state P.U.C. or D.O.T. tax/revemue department. (different states go by different department names, like P.S.C., etc, etc.) Trust me, they are the kind who will smash a turnip just to see if there is indeed blood inside. (the old saying you can't get blood from a turnip) The law concerning fuel with red dye is the fuel must be used exclusively for NON-HIGHWAY use. A stationary engine, portable generator, truck refrigeration unit farm tractor and other similar uses are non-highway. The way I understand the law; and I am NOT a lawyer (laughing) is IF the vehicle in question is used on ANY highway, and can be used for a purpose other than farming, ie a pickup truck or some vehicle like that; then you have to use non-red fuel and pay the fuel tax, and file for a refund at the end of the year for the non-highway use. In most states even truckers using refrigeration units use regular fuel in the refer units, and then file for a end of year refund. So my advice is unless it's a FARM tractor type haywagon, I would not use red-fuel in it.
 
Theres not a more blood thirsty organization worse than the IRS. About 15 years ago Farm bureau Co-Op charged tax on a fuel delivery of about 500 Gal Dsl. I didnt reqalize it till tax time. Had the tax preparer go through the necessary forms, & file it on the return. Tax return seemed way over due, & one day the phone rang. It was the IRS! They made me send a photo copy of the receipt, & told me that Co-Op had already sent copies of ALL my fuel purchases for the tax year, they would not refund the money till they verified the other purchases were tax exempt, & could compare records to check for errors. I got the return about 17, or 18 weeks after the original filing date!!!

I walked in that Co-Op, & informed them the next time they will refund me the tax, & report it on there taxes!!! Ive not let 24 hours go by without examining a fuel bill since that year from anybody.

Scotty
 
Oil dealer I buy fuel oil from for the house told me this.He gets stopped by an IRS agent and his fuel tank is checked.They have white cars with blue lights.He sells fuel in a rural area and gets stopped often.This is how it works in Maine.
 
Now for the story correct the IRS doesent make trafic stops the DOT,Hiway Patrol and Sherrif can and do check fuel but not the IRS they have no jurisdiction over traffic laws and they dont know anything about red deisel fuel.
 
What exactly is this "haywagon"? A Stackliner? Flatbed truck?
Local mega-dairy farmer got hit for using red fuel in silage trucks which are just dump trucks use to haul silage from the chopper in the fields to bunkers. They travel a lot on the road and should be using taxed fuel like any other truck.
 
I have to assume that it is a New Holland self propelled self loading self unloading unit that is like the tractor pulled models only bigger and these do not require a licence plate. That is the same for a tractor, self propelled, baler, forage harvestor, combine, corn picker, field sprayer.
 
Title 26 of the Internal Revenue Code regulates the use of dyed diesel. The IRS also has enforcement agents that can check your tanks. The reason most of you see DOT enforcing the IRS rule is the IRS does not have authority to stop you in traffic. They must follow you to the farm.

With that said........ You MUST have a exemption to use red fuel. And not all off road vehicles have a exemption; and not all on road vehicles can not get a exemption.
Such as school buses are used on the highway but in most states they are exempt from road tax and can use red fuel.
On the other hand a train uses red fuel but detailed records must be kept because they pay a reduced tax rate. Not totally exempt. And when was the last time you saw a train on the interstate???

I know you guys have heard that the IRS has been hiring new agents. Now you know what some of them are doing.

The problem is the interpretation of federal law. The farm bureau has been fighting cases like this in Washington state for a while now. Other states are having similar problems.
Attention farmers: IRS fuel agents may soon be at your doorstep
 
(quoted from post at 06:24:09 09/25/10) Now for the story correct the IRS doesent make trafic stops the DOT,Hiway Patrol and Sherrif can and do check fuel but not the IRS they have no jurisdiction over traffic laws and they dont know anything about red deisel fuel.
Click to expand...

A friend of mine was hauling farm equipment from Texas to Brinkley's Auction in Idabel,Okla was stopped just after crossing Red River into Ok.
His fuel was checked and he stated side of vehicle had IRS written on it!!!!!!!!
He had road fuel in tank.

I customed baled hay for over 20 yrs. I frequently drive tractors on county & state roads with red fuel in the tanks and never been stopped. Guess I'm lucky.
 
got the same thing going on here, inspections by people with minimal training able to write citations, i solved the problem for me, i now use on road diesel in all diesel powered stuff, just less hassle, even if it costs more its not as much as a court fight
 

Title 26 of the Internal Revenue Code regulates the use of dyed diesel. The IRS also has enforcement agents that can check your tanks. The reason most of you see DOT enforcing the IRS rule is the IRS does not have authority to stop you in traffic. They must follow you to the farm.
With that said........ You MUST have a exemption to use red fuel. And not all off road vehicles have a exemption; and not all on road vehicles can not get a exemption.
Such as school buses are used on the highway but in most states they are exempt from road tax and can use red fuel.
On the other hand a train uses red fuel but detailed records must be kept because they pay a reduced tax rate. Not totally exempt. And when was the last time you saw a train on the interstate???

I know you guys have heard that the IRS has been hiring new agents. Now you know what some of them are doing.

The problem is the interpretation of federal law. The farm bureau has been fighting cases like this in Washington state for a while now. Other states are having similar problems.

http://www.lemasterdaniels.com/news/IRSgoingafterfarmersusingdyeddiesel.html
 
Unless things have changed in the last few years. If a school bus is owned by the school district (no liscene tag on them)they can burn dyed fuel. If the district hires a private bus company, then you will notice they will have state tags on them, burns clear fuel. Same way with the Army, a humvee uses dyed fuel and a Army bus will have a goverment tag on it has, to have clear fuel. This goes back to what is scary, young college kid gets job with our goverment, only knows what he read in books, but has power to enforce regs. on you. They always told me if it has to have a liscene tag it burns clear fuel. If no tag is required can burn dyed fuel
 
To Mr. Engle; I'd like to just call you Bob. Please Bob, just let the $9K fine off-set some of what you really owe our government.
 
We're already taxed to the hilt on nearly everything we buy or do, and we have the fuel gestappo harassing farmers?

A shame.
 
I'm merely thinking out loud here so I'm not trying to state a fact, but if I take the license off of my diesel pickup and only use it to haul goods around the farm I could of course use red fuel because it's used off road. Isn't it now being used as a tractor? But if I drive it on the road 1/8 mile to transport goods from one farm to the other, I would need clear fuel in the tank. That means I would have to use clear in the tractor when I haul grain up the road from the field to the bin. I know of a farmer who used to drive his tractor to town supposedly legaly because he lost his license to drive a car. Too many DUI's! Would his tractor have to be insured as a motor vehicle and would he have to have clear fuel? How about the many manure haulers we have here in Iowa, hauling from the hog confinement to the field over the roads? I've never heard of any of them being checked for red fuel. They're chastised for squishing our roads out with their heavy axle weights but fuel color doesn't seem to be a problem for them. Maybe Iowa's different because we're an ag state. Jim
 
I buy red diesel on occasion 100 gallons or so at a time in a 275 gallon DOT approved transport tank. I use this in my backhoe and in my shop furnaces as needed. I had to show 1 cop my backhoe and furnace tanks before he backed off. Guilty until proven innocent. (My F-150 is gas).
 
Back when I owned a bus company I used to send 72 passenger buses to the stadiums for games/tailgating. The DOT would be in the dropoff line to "stick" all the bus tanks checking for red fuel. Even district buses were stuck and in hot water if they were red - meaning they had chartered that bus out with some red fuel in the tank. I always wondered how they would explain it if they were bringing kids to do the Nat'l Anthem or something.

I always used my gas buses for those runs for this reason, but it was sometimes a chore just to convince them it was gas. After offering to let one fella drink some of the gas out of the tank he finally let me through...
 
That is what the IRS does, as directed by congress and the president, steal from the productive to raise funds to buy votes from the dependent. Taxation is theft, pure and simple.
 
I have been wondering for sometime now what the Gov. thinks about how much raod tax they get for gas that is used off road. Such as lawn mowers, dirt bikes, trenchers, antique tractors, outboard motors, atv"s.and numerous other equipment that I can"t think of at this moment. We can"t get our tax money back. In my opinion this is more theft by the government. I probably should not be posting this but if the Government don"t like it that is tough.
 
Did you meam Whidbey Inland, WA??

I think this is a hoax, WA state works the same as OR, Self propelled hay wagon is same as a tractor. Has no other use other than hauling hay!!! Requires no registration nor license plate, just slow moving
triangle.

There would be many farmers in NE Oregon getting fines if this was true. Also you see a lot of simi-tractors converted to 1 ton bale sqeezes loaders that use red diesel running on highways, moving from field to field.



Keith
 
And than they say,America is a free country!

Heck,here in Can i haven't used anything but off road gas and diesel in the last 30 yrs off or on the road even in my trucks and car.The wife goes to work with red diesel in her tank daily

Prob illegal but i never been checked.....yet
 
Local Farm Bureau guy told me about this recently. I think it was a regular farm tractor, pulling a hay wagon. The issue is "highway vs. non-highway", and IRS is taking the position that if you're on the highway, you're causing wear and tear, and the tax is due. Don't know if anyone has gone to court on it yet.

It may come to having to have a separate tank for clear fuel, with a valve to switch when you're going on the highway. Or having one tractor with clear fuel, just for highway use.

Just another example of government bringing the productive segment of society to its knees, to raise more money to give the halt and the lame.
 
(quoted from post at 17:45:26 09/25/10) That is what the IRS does, as directed by congress and the president, steal from the productive to raise funds to buy votes from the dependent. Taxation is theft, pure and simple.
Click to expand...

So we should go back to the days of the Articles of Confederation when the government couldn't consolidate taxes?
 
I work for a company that hauls a forklift on the back bumper for unloading. That machine qualifies as off road IE red fuel. The company decided that it was better to use a separate fuel card with a 10 gal limit, and apply for a rebate on the taxes.
This eliminates the chance of someone fueling the truck at the Off Road Pump.
Tim in OR
 
My post directly above was almost completely wrong.

I just got my issue of Capital Press, an Oregon farm news weekly, and it was a self-propelled bale wagon, not a tractor. IRS Pub. 510 defines what qualifies and what doesn't- it looks like the IRS guy just didn't understand what the machine was, and by the definitions in the IRS guideline, I believe the farmer will be virtually certain to win when he contests it in court.

Not a change in the rules, just a screw-up by someone enforcing them.
 
In the 60"s and 70"s we had two 500 gal gasoline tanks on our farm. One for tractors and equipment and one for vehicles. NM had red dye for off road gasoline at the time (may still have) and when the truck brought us fuel, he filled both tanks without dye. He just handed us the dye packs. Of course the taxable tank lasted a long time before refilling! Never had dye for our diesel fuel and propane had no highway tax.
 
I believe some of the President"s appointees have missed paying the proper taxes. Can we apply that stick to them in some useful orifice?
Tim
 
(quoted from post at 13:30:48 09/25/10) I have been wondering for sometime now what the Gov. thinks about how much raod tax they get for gas that is used off road. Such as lawn mowers, dirt bikes, trenchers, antique tractors, outboard motors, atv"s.and numerous other equipment that I can"t think of at this moment. We can"t get our tax money back. In my opinion this is more theft by the government. I probably should not be posting this but if the Government don"t like it that is tough.
Click to expand...

I like to take my antique tractor out on the road for this very reason. :D
 
Should have never let them get away with having 2 different fuels.All diesel ought to be able to be used anywhere.
Google what it says about pollution by fuel.Eleven big old supertankers put more pollution in the air than all of the cars in the world.But they arent going to tell the people who run super tankers they have to clean that up.
The reason is that people who run super tankers are rich.They are behind funding the people who gripe about stuff,and get the EPA involved with stuff like this.

The EPA might have done some good 20 years ago,but this stuff is nonsense.
Also did I read it was the IRS that came and fined him?Actually a Sheriff can lock up anybody like that.A Sheriff of a county has more authority than a Fed.After all of them get locked up a few times and eat baloney and coffee for a couple of weeks,maybe they will go get a real job someplace.If Sheriffs will cooperate this can get turned around.After all,what are they going to do?Send the Army after the Sheriffs?That would be a good day if they did and we would be done with them after a few minutes.
We dont need this government turning into something like Russia was.I read somewhere that all that was ever really communists in Russia was only 10%.10% of the people could have been overthrown by the other 90% if they did it when it first started happening.

I guess they think since there is less than a million farmers,they will just do whatever they want to.So far they have it seems.
 
The EPA has nothing to do with it. The only difference between #2 diesel, road diesel and heating fuel is the taxes. We have to pay for the roads somehow, right now it is taxes on road fuel, do you have a better idea ? Or shoud we not maintain and build roads ?

As far as the supertankers,none are old and all double contained, everything that comes into the west coast has to be burning low sulfer fuel and have vapor recovery on all oil transfers, be it lightering on some bay ancorage, or direct transfer to a refinery or tank farm. That is EPA and it is good regulation.

Finally, after 24 years as a big city Dept. Sherrif and Fire Fighter I am close to retirement and thinking about running for Sheriff in the very rural community I grew up in and now own a farm. If some local rural Sheriff thumbed his nose at the Feds, all grants and financial assistence would quit, all the cars, radios, guns, training, deputies ect would be gone. It is something any Sheriff would be thinking about when he escorts the Feds to the county line.
 
Whoa there!The EPA has everything to do with it.You also need to read about what it says about ships and pollution.I just put up a couple of links about it.It says 40% of all air pollution over land will be from ships by 2010.

Why do you think they passed all of those laws about fuel?People in an office like the EPA had to justify their existance,so they created a problem,by demonizing Red fuel.I know very well that there are road taxes.I had to pay them when I operated a truck but we always paid road taxes on fuel.You couldnt haul a fuel tank around behind your truck before the EPA came up with this crap.

Also every Sheriff should do what the people want instead of the FEDS for a while so they get out of this crap of putting all this tax on us.The Feds are not elected,the Sheriff is,and he should protect the people of his County/Parish and if the Feds try and cut any money,the people should throw them out of office.

Here we have more than 50% tax on us,and you set there and defend the Feds and want to be Sheriff?I dont think so.You first need to educate yourself a lot about how things work.

I can see the FBI doing a job,but some crackerhead Fed tax collector coming around fining a farmer,thats crap and you need to understand it.Next it will be some other group.What if they fined you 9000 dollars because you were a Sheriff?You wouldnt like it would you?
 
I think the way it is in South Dakota is that any diesel vehicle that is designed to run on the roads, like pickups and trucks, are not allowed to have dyed fuel in them. Doesn't matter if you have a 30 year old silage truck that has NEVER seen a road, it can not legally have dyed diesel in it. I believe school buses and government vehicles are exempt. Don't know about fire departments. I have never heard of anyone in our local area being fined though. A local trucker turned in a farmer who was doing some "side" trucking and was using dyed fuel. Trucker was told there were only 6 people in the whole state who could check the fuel, so it never got done. I've been told that the person who turns in the "offender" can get a reward if the person is found guilty.
 
A silage truck doesnt require license so it can run farm fuel in it. A semi hauling corn out of the field to the farmers bin needs on road fuel. A tractor no matter where it is or on what road can run off road fuel. If you own a excavating company and have a bulldozer you have to have on road fuel on it, even though it is a totally off road vehicle. Even if your farm truck never leaves the farm you cant but off road fuel in it unless you get it exempted, which is difficult to do.
 
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