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I hate alcohol gas

B

blue_tractor_man

Member
I was bushhogging today with my Ford 4000 cylinder tractor. It was right at 100 degrees and the little tractor was working really hard. She was over in the red a little, but the radiator did not boil-but the stupid gas did! Ever since they started putting that stupid alcohol in the gasoline my fuel boils. I put a heat shield on the fuel line, but it still boils. It is pretty scary to hear and see the fumes coming out of the fuel cap.

How can I find any gas without alcohol in it?!?!

Does anyone else have this problem?
 
I have never had this problem, but I know that around where I live some stations only sell ethanol blended gas, and some have a nozzle that is fuel without any ethanol in it. Maybe you can find a local station that offers that option.
 
You're not oalone, BT.

Gasoline with alcohol is a known problem with Ford tractors having fuel tanks above the engine.

Unfortunately, finding gasoline without alcohol is becoming more and more difficult.

Dean
 
Never had a problem with fuel boiling, bur I am making the second round replacing fuel lines on all of my 2 cycle equipment, trimmers,chainsaws, blowers and edgers. You can't buy fuel lines or carb. gaskets that ethynol won't eat up.
 
I hate to bust your bubble but we were having gas boiling in the gas tank of a farmall 400 with a mounted corn in the hot fall of 1963. There was no alcohol in the gas back then! IT WAS JUST HOT AND THE HOOD WAS DESIGNED TO CARRY THE ENGINE HEAT STRAIGHT BACK TO THE GAS TANK!!!!! I suspect the hood on your Ford is designed the same way. Our answer at that time was to cut 2 in. wide slots on the side and over the top of the hood ahead of the gas tank. Also the heat shield needs to be in front of the gas tank with the hood vents in front of the heat shield. This lets the heat to exit the top of the hood like it wants to(remember heat rises!}. Try working the tractor without the hood for a couple of hours and see if the gas tank stays cooler. By the way IH redesigned the gas cap so it vented different. Don"t know if Ford upgraded their fuel caps or not. The IH caps were and still are free. Not sure if they will fit your Ford. Try taking a hood panel off and let us know what happens. Armand
 
I hate to bust your bubble but we were having gas boiling in the gas tank of a farmall 400 with a mounted corn picker in the hot fall of 1963. There was no alcohol in the gas back then! IT WAS JUST HOT AND THE HOOD WAS DESIGNED TO CARRY THE ENGINE HEAT STRAIGHT BACK TO THE GAS TANK!!!!! I suspect the hood on your Ford is designed the same way. Our answer at that time was to cut 2 in. wide slots on the side and over the top of the hood ahead of the gas tank. Also the heat shield needs to be in front of the gas tank with the hood vents in front of the heat shield. This lets the heat to exit the top of the hood like it wants to(remember heat rises!}. Try working the tractor without the hood for a couple of hours and see if the gas tank stays cooler. By the way IH redesigned the gas cap so it vented different. Don"t know if Ford upgraded their fuel caps or not. The IH caps were and still are free. Not sure if they will fit your Ford. Try taking a hood panel off and let us know what happens. Armand
 
We have been using it for over 25yrs with no problems i dont have any rubbefuel hose problems two Bs have been hat way for yrs and yrs. Even the Fram see thru filters work. Find another problem.
 
Well I don't know what we would be doing with all that corn in this country if not for alcohol. I just sold some corn for $3.50/bu. Other wise we would slide back to the days of $1.80. But they should probably make non-blended avail to those that want it.
 
worx fine for me ,.. Bought 65 gallons e-85 for 2.15 yesterday ,we all can have cleaner air when we burn more alcohol ... I Agree with other farmers that there are so many good merits to ethanol , All My Case tractors seem to run very well on it ,, so far no boiling in the tanks , but if it does , heat sheild ideas and better venting by pulling the hood on these hot days seems to be easist suggestion
 
I burn ethanol in everything I own and have not seen any problems with it. Been doing it since it came out. Boys and I run it in snowmobiles, weed eaters, chain saws, 4 wheelers, 2 cylinder tractors, cars, and pickups. I have even run E30 in my Dakota and Durango with no problems. I don't understand why some of you guys have such a problem with it. I know a lot of farmers that have contracts with the ethanol plants around here and they are always smiling when they talk about them. For us in this area, we pay less for the blend than straight so I always look for it. There are blender pumps at some stations that allow you to mix whatever blend you like.
 
My local country store sells and advertises Ethanol free gasoline. It"s been a good seller for them too. With our high humidity here in the southside of Va. folks go out of their way to find E free gas. Get better gas mileage too.
 
Our 2 960's susre had a lot of trouble with gas boiling - vapor lock - back in the late 70's and early 80's.

Dad finally took the mufflers out on top, not under the tank; put the coils on a wood block outr away from the engine block; and the bad one got a new distributor.

Both ran great, one we got rid of not long after, the other I still have, and works good now. Whatever the fuel mix.

--->Paul
 
im with dean on this one my ford tractor is boiling gas too and my gas does not have alcohol in it, its due to the fuel tank being mounted 2 inches above the engine combined with a very hot day,just have to let her cool out once in awhile
 
blue
i had the same exact problem 7 months ago and had described the solution here on the board,and it works very well.
what i did was take the goose neck fitting that goes on the exhaust manifold that the muffler ties into cut it in half horizontally rotate to have exhaust exit at roughly 60 to 90 degrees outward from the original exit.
get a 90 degree pipe and muffler and install. you will be surprised at how much cooler the engine runs and as an added benefit your oil pressure just may run a little bit higher when your engine is up to temp, mine did. you can try all the remedies known but you will not have any success until you get that heat out of there.
my opinion is that fords idea was not a better one. that muffler lying next to the valve cover was not a good idea,nor being under the gas tank was a good idea. i had put a new tank in my 2000 and went to remove the cap and it flew out of my hand hope this helps al
 
Technically, it's not the alcohol content, it's the vapor pressure. If you want fuel that has the lowest possible vapor pressure, use avgas. Avgas has a maximum Reid Vapor Pressure of 7 psi, while auto fuel can be much higher, particularly in the winter. Smog regulations in California limit vapor pressure to 7 psi, so Californian gas should be very resistant to vapor lock, regardless of its alcohol content. There are areas in other states that have RVP restrictions as well, here's a list.
EPA Guide to summer RVP standards PDF
 
Paul:

Your 2960 has a fuel pump and is indeed subject to vapor lock as a result of gasoline vaporizing in the fuel system upstage of the fuel pump.

Older Ford tractors with gravity flow fuel systems cannot vapor lock but gasoline including alcohol boiling in the tank is a safety hazard especially if one does not use a vanted cap.

Dean
 
Blue:

Is your 4000 a early design 4 cylinder version?

If so, you MUST have the heat shield in place above the muffler.

That said, heat shield or not, gasoline with alcohol therein WILL boil in the tank of early Ford tractors when working hard on hot days while gasoline without alcohol therein does so rarely if at all.

On hot days, asoline with alcohol therein will boil in the fuel tanks of 8N tractors even though these tractors do hot have mufflers beneath the tank. Gasoline without alcohol does not.

Dean
 
Armand Tatro took the words right out of my mouth. Our 400 had the oversize fuel tank and we made the side panels so no louvers. Picking corn on a half way warm day would make it boil. About every 20 minutes would reach up there and crack the gas cap. Had to hang on to it though. The first time had to crawl off and find it.
 
Gasoline would always boil but the alcohol makes it boil quicker,high test would help and also you can add 2 cyle oil to the mix to make it not vaporize as quickly.Running your gas line away from the enigne and back to the carb also helps.
Best solution these days is to get a diesel.
 
I had the same problem with a Ford 9N. Finding gas without the wicked brew is almost imposible as I'm in corn country. I tried adding oil to the gas out of frustration, don't think it helped any as far as I can tell.

I don't mind using it in my autos / pickups, but any small engine has just given me fits.
Av gas is far better, but it is a real hatle getting it, as they don't want to be bothered at the airport with small amounts.

Our local fire department would love to switch to AV gas, but we have no safe place to store the cans.

I would like to see all the set aside acres planted into corn, and this would be turned into fuel, and every government vehickle would have to burn this free gas. Well nothing is for free, we all know, but we pay the farmers to use the CRP options.
 
Mark, Thanks. I noticed that my county has an RVP standard of 7.8 but the surrounding counties have an rvp of 9. I have a friend who owns a gas station and he said it is common for some stations in my county to sell gasoline formulated for the neighboring counties. He said it is illegal but they do it because the other gas is cheaper. I have been using gas from a store near the county line. I wonder if I go into the city if the gas might be different.

So what you are saying is it is not necessarily the alcohol but the vapor pressure of the fuel. It always seemed odd that alcohol would boil before gasoline.
 
As previously stated. You can not expect to jam the fuel tank on top of a hot engine and red hot muffler. And not boil the fuel during the summer.
Keeping the tank at 3/4 instead of 1/4 will reduce boiling a wee bit.
Is there any way to set the cooling fan to reverse airflow?
Aviation fuel is not overly expensive. It's all we use here on small low hour gasoline equipment.
 
I was involved with a 971 Ford in the early '80's. Same problem any time the temp was over 80.
 
Aw, comon' now,

I remember watchin' the gasoline boil in those little Fords way back when I was 10-years-old.

That was in 1954 and they fer darned sure wasn't putting alcohol in the gasoline back then.

Allan
 
The thing to understand is that gasoline isn't "pure" anything, it's a blend of compounds that are combined to get specific properties. Anti-knock, starting, emissions, and detergency are all factored in. Some of the things added to gas raise the vapor pressure, other things will lower it. Generally RVP is higher in the winter for good starting, then lower in the summer for reduced vapor locking and evaporative emissions. If vapor pressure isn't specified, refineries will go for a higher VP if they can get the other desired characteristics for less money that way.
 
Dad had an old homelite chainsaw when I was young. A Super XL I think. When you made some big cuts and got that thing heated up the gas would boil and if you had more than a half tank it would squirt out the cap vents and get your glove soaked in fuel. Yup, the good ol days.
 
Ah you finally let it slip.. Knew I was older than you..10 in 54 well I was 11 so say one year smarter..don,t think that adds up because something about living in Tennessee just takes longer to learn..But like you I certainly remember it boiling in the fords way back then.
 
I shoulda said we had a pair of 960 Fords, sorry for the number confusion.

We saw the bubbles in the sediment bowl, gravity feed can vapor lock.

The Wisconsin engin with fuel pump also vapor locks, nature of the beast.... Any type of gas...

--->Paul
 
Sorry, but gravity feed fuel systems cannot vapor lock.

By definition, vapor lock is a condition wherein the fuel pump cannot pump liquid fuel to the carburetor due to non liquid gasses in the fuel system upstream from and, consequently, within the fuel pump.

This is not to say that boiling fuel in the tank of a gravity flow fuel system cannot cause other issues.

Dean
 
That's normal for a 4000 with any kind of gas.Near dayton ohio last year a guy was driving a 4000 down the road and the gas tank exploded.That's a bad place to put a gas tank,above the engine and a few inches away from the exhaust.I'm surprised there hasn't been a law suit over it.Those tanks are also proned to leak along the seams also.
 
I have been told that if you add about 10% diesel to the gas it will reduce the boiling problem. Probably it should be mixed externally as last week I just poured in about a gallon in our Farmall C and it seemed to go right thru the gas and ended up in the sediment jar! I got it running and drove it around and it soon was running fine. I thought I might have to drain it and get it running on gas again!
 
Never had our Ford's gas tanks boil over with non alcohol gas but never "bushhogged" at 100 degree F. A couple local stations handle non-alcohol gas but it is very tough to find. One is roughly five miles and carries non-alcohol regular. The other in a small town, is 20+ miles, but within six miles or so of the farm and has non-alcohol premium. I travel the back roads and fill a drum with premium for the farm. Wouldn't chance filling a drum at the local station with the cheaper regular.
 
Can you wrap the muffler and/or exhaust pipe with the asbestos type heat wrap? I'm not sure if it actually is asbestos or not but it is used on motorcycle exhaust pipes to keep the hot exhaust pipe from burning the riders leg or riding gear. I've seen it used on street bikes and competition off road bikes to prevent burning and their exhaust pipes get very hot. Dave
 
I have a Ford 960 - 4 cyl that when it was used for heavy work in hot weather would boil the gas - long before we had 10% ethanol mix as we do now. I assume you are talking about an older 4 cyl 4000 . 2 solutions mentioned below- be sure oem tin heat sheild below tank is in place , run with gas tank 1/2 full or more - near empty it boils really fast.A couple more thoughts - Ford dealers used to swap the old gas caps for a vented cap , and I also re routed the gas line out from behind the manifold - out over the manifold with a little air space . Also check manifold /exhaust for leaks which could concentrate the exhaust heat and intensify the problem . Finding non ethanol gas varies state to state- not sure where you live , but here in NY we have had 10% ethanol blend mandatory since 9/09. My Impala lost about 2 mpg after the switch.
 
It is usually not just one thing like alcohol in the gas that makes your gas boil; but rather a combination of several things.

Ethanol; RVP; tank not full; small gas line; altitude; heat shield not in place; added filters or sediment bowls; ect.... Can all add up to fuel boiling.

But the one thing in your post that just keeps jumping out is the fact that you said...
"She was over in the red a little"
I wonder how bad your problem would really be if you repaired your cooling system to where it never got in the red zone.
 
You might try wrapping the fuel line with aluminum foil, about 4 or 5 layers thick. That would cost almost nothing and is pretty easy to do. It worked on vapor lock prone cars in the 60's, but I haven't tried it since. Wrapping the muffler with header wrap might help, but I think it would be a much bigger job and you would need to find a source for the material. I also would wonder how durable header wrap would be used on a farm tractor doing various jobs. I think I might try stuffing some fiberglass between the muffler, rocker cover and heat shield to see if it helps. A layer of thin aluminum sheet laying on the muffler might also help reflect some of the heat away from the fuel tank area. That sheet could be held in place by the fiberglass.

Around Eastern Washington, I don't think any of the regular gas stations sell anything but alcohol blends, and for the most part, I guess they work OK for me. I don't like alcohol in my chain saws, so I bought a couple of gallons of low lead avgas for mixing for the saws. Unfortunately it cost close to $6/gallon--kind of expensive for regular use. I hope it was worth it for the chain saws.

Another thought: exhaust temperature is cooler if the mixture is a bit rich and the timing is a little advanced. Retarded timing really heats things up.

If you hear your fuel boiling in the tank, be really careful. Wait to open the cap until things cool down, as there might be pressure in the tank. If the pressure is suddenly released, it might spray gas all over, which could be incredibly dangerous. You also might want to make sure your gas cap vents adequately. Good luck!
 
I had to replace the tank on my Jubilee and decided to put an aluminum heat under the tank. Designed it to prevent the heat off the radiator from coming in contact with the front of the tank along with the heat from the engine. There was also a heat sheild for the muffler already in place. Went to harbor freight and purchased an IR thermometer and noticed the gas tank temp ran 100 degrees on a 95 degree day. Previously, it was running over 112 degrees. Keep in mind this was just setting in the sun, not working it hard.

Perhaps when it's 100, you should find a shade tree.
 
george i used to do that -w- my ford 2000 before i modified it never had to do that -w- my case 311-b. poor design on fords part. al
 
No doubt about that- ethanol has lower energy in it......those of us who support ethanol certainly understand and admit that. BUT...the kicker is in the price! We"ve had a flex-fuel Dodge van for years...get 11 percent fewer mpg with E85...but having done the math, know that even at eth being 40 cents under gas, we are ahead. Lately the margin is around 65 cents cheaper for E85. MN has had 10% or more eth in all regular gas for over a decade...rest of the country needs to get caught up with the pacesetters.
 
(quoted from post at 22:15:53 08/15/10) No doubt about that- ethanol has lower energy in it......those of us who support ethanol certainly understand and admit that. BUT...the kicker is in the price! We"ve had a flex-fuel Dodge van for years...get 11 percent fewer mpg with E85...but having done the math, know that even at eth being 40 cents under gas, we are ahead. Lately the margin is around 65 cents cheaper for E85. MN has had 10% or more eth in all regular gas for over a decade...rest of the country needs to get caught up with the pacesetters.
Click to expand...

Ethanol would be more economically feasible if the mash was distilled with low cost steam from an adjacent nuclear plant.
Then again just mix cheap steam with abundant natural gas in the presence of a catalyst and the result is methanol.
 
Back in 1969 while at service training at Hickory Hills near Chicago, they had a 656 gas on the dyno and after they shut it down they pointed out that you could hear the gas boiling in tank. That was the first time I ever saw that. They had tank vented to outside of building for safety. Later 656's came with wad of fiberglass insulation between heat shield and gas tank. Still later, the gas cap situation was litigated in the courts and IH is still giving free gas caps due to some fires and injuries. They even traced a tractor back through previous dealers and owners to see if the new gas cap had been installed when it was supposed to be due to a tractor fire that occured several years later and hundreds of miles away.
 
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