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College Education

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What do you think about yesterday's news about fewer kids going to college? My wife says it is the cost. That they don't want to incur the debt. I say it is the parents. Not teaching work ethic and willing to keep them at home feeding and clothing them while they "hang out" with friends.
 
Your wife is right about me, anyway. The work I am doing and the workI would like to do more of don't require a degree and I am staying debt free. We have a lot of college students and recent graduates through here and mostly they don't have very much good to say about it. If I ever need a degree I can go to night school, and when I want to learn about things I can do that in other ways.
Zach
 
Might be what this country needs.

They all go to college and think they have to have a big paying job when they graduate.

So nobody wants to do the low pay jobs cause they deserve more. They do, after all have a degree that they need to pay for.

Then, with no one to do the low pay jobs, we ship those jobs to other countries.

Work ethic is taught at home not at college. I think some work ethic may be lost at college.

I have 4 daughters, 3 son in laws and one soon to be son in law all gainfully employed. All have their own homes and receive no handouts. Only one has a 4 year degree.

Just something to think about.

Gary
 
25 years ago we had the highest percentage of high school and college grads in the world. yesterday, government said we are now eighth in the world of college grads (didn't say about HS)

I don't think parents are doing the right thing. Yep, you don't need a college degree to get a job, but when you're 40 or 50 and LOOSE a job, the degree sure comes in handy!
 
Many parents seem to believe that college is the answer and don't think much past that. Many parents pay for their children's college, which ammounts to feeding and clothing them, while they hang out with friends and earn a degree that is useless. So it's actually more expensive than letting them stay at home and hang with friends.

I'm 30 years old and finishing off my student loans this month. I graduated from RIT with $13k of debt and 2 degrees. I paid for it all myself and it did help me get the job I was looking for. However the vast majority of my friends are not using their degrees. In fact they would probably be in the same type of job with $80k less debt if they had skipped college all together.

Most college degrees are not actually helpful in finding a job. While the right college degree may be the answer for an induvidual, it is not the answer for everyone.
 
It doesn't require a degree and 80 grand of debt to flip burgers... and that's what a lot of people find themselves doing after receiving their degree, hoping to pay off their debt. They're just as well off to work for a while and make some money or at least figure out what they want to do before going off to college...

Rod
 
Depends on the degree. I have three sons and three daughters-in-law, all have are degreed, three have Masters. They are all working in their chosen fields, and have been since they graduated. I believe the difference is that they all have degrees that directly relate to a profession. Too many kids go to college with no idea of what they want to do, get a degree in some subject that interests them, but has no relationship to a JOB. No wonder they can't find employment. Having said all that, work ethic makes a huge difference. None of them work an 8 hour day. Weekends and evenings are fair game too. Lot like farming isn't it? I'm very proud of all of them, but they earned it themselves. Sorry for the rant, but it's a sore subject with me. People educated in areas that are not related to employment is pretty much a waste, except for their own personal satisfaction.
 
The cost of an education has to be weighed against the rewards. While government has convinced people that health care costs are out of control, they forget that the cost of a college education (government controlled for the most part) has increased much faster and leaves young people starting out with a huge financial burden. Couple that with the fact that colleges are now teaching to the lowest common denominator the education that cost so much more has less value than ever before. There is a reason people say that a college degree is what a high school diploma used to be.

My wife and I are both college graduates but have agreed that a trade might be the best route for both of our sons. A recent guide on incomes shows people with vocational degrees will out earn the average 4 year college graduate in a life time. A bright hard working young man with a plumbing, electrical, or mechanical degree may not earn as much as a doctor in their lifetime but they will earn more than a teacher, loan officer or English major.
 
And don't forget, the college graduating class of 2010 has a near 50% unemployment rate. But since most haven't worked while attending school they don't qualify for unemployment benefits.

The report failed to say how many of the 50% that did find jobs were working in jobs outside their course of study (ie McDonalds).
 
A college degree is a good thing, it's just not for everyone and is not an entitlement to be given freely. Some of the most successful business people never went to college. My uncle for one graduated from the 8th grade, worked on the farm until he was drafted to go to Korea, came home and started farming again, and was President of the board of Prarie Farms Dairy for 30 years.

I do think it is important for the kids to graduate from HS with good solid reading and math skills, beyond that if they apply themselves they can be successful.
 
dhermesc: I agree with your comments: "A bright hard working young man with a plumbing, electrical, or mechanical degree may not earn as much as a doctor in their lifetime but they will earn more than a teacher, loan officer or English major. "
You can add taking jobs that have risk. All depends on how that person can handle risk. Another factor is how much the person likes what they are doing. Being a slave to get a paycheck is a waste of human life. ag
 
I think its the cost. Were it being lazy and staying at home, they can do that at college. With a cheap 4 year degree running nearly 30 grand not counting living expenses and no jobs out there for most recent grads I think they are making the wise choice.
 
I did a two year business administration deal, worst 20K I ever spent, didn't learn half the stuff I learned at my job I had at the time. Why go to college when you can go work for the union making wicked money, my UPS driver gets paid pennies under $30 an hour, and I can find many many more people with only a high school education making that in my area, that is still not the majority of folks in my area but I don't think those jobs are that hard to get if you want them, from what I know. $30 an hour is quite a bit around here. Why waste the money on school. It seems that college is less and less about learning and more about the college making money.
 
There are a lot of sterotyping going on in this thread. As a current college student majoring in Agroecology (Plant Sciences) that is currently working seven days a week at two jobs I don't feel that all college students are "lazy and useless." My degree program also has an above 90 percent employment rate right out of school. I will agree that there are a lot of students that get absolutely useless degrees as I have several people that work for me that are getting a second bachelors because the first one they got is absolutely useless (such as a theatre degree, some kind of music degree, and one got a history degree and is doing a post-back for his education certificate.)

I think that the reason less kids are going to college is a combination of things: one being the cost because kids think they have to go to an expensive school (I go to the University of Wyoming fall semseter is going to cost me $1,800 for a Soil genisis and morphology class, Plant and Fungi Biology, Plant Protection, and a stupid theatre class that is a University requirement). The big factor is have you guys seen the idiots that try and attend college?!?!? Half of them are total potheads or can't stay away from the bottle long enough to go to class!

I'm going to get of my soapbox now!
 
A good example is world renowned author, Louis L'Amour, now deceased.

He quit high school during the first semester of his sophomore year, saying school was interfering with his education. The day his class graduated from high school, he was in Singapore as a crewman on a merchant ship.

He's an interesting man. He's noted for western novels, but he also spent years at sea, won 51 of 59 prize fights, was a 1st Lieutenant in the Army in WWII, and traveled Europe and Asia extensively.

When he quit high school, he asked, "Why should I waste an entire semester studying, say, General Science, when I can go to a public library, check out a book on General Science that's far more interesting and informative than the textbook in high school, read it and digest it in a few days and move on to something else?"

Good point.
 
I have a son in school. Like you he has two jobs and pays his tuition himself. We pay for the car insurance and Cell phone. I don"t know where the Gov gets its figures. SUNY Alfred just closed applications for the fall 2010 semester due to being full. I think may people are opting for the cheaper state schools for the first two years of school then they will go on to finish their 4 year degrees at the other schools.

If parents made the kids pay for school they would be less likely to waste the opportunity.
 
Actually, a degree does not help much when one looks for a job beyond 40, except in certain situations. Nothing much else does either.

Age discrimination, though illegal, is universally practiced and cannot be compensated for with education (or anything else).

Dean
 
I agree. Many degrees are nearly useless, and some trade skills offer much more job security than do most degrees.

Dean.
 
Again, I agree.

As a holder of five degrees as well as at least one well developed trade skill, I speak from experience in saying that I would do things differently if doing so again.

In my case, the first degree was very valuable, the next three of very limited value and the last downright damaging, even though I've never had any student debt.

The cost of education today is very often disproportionate to the quality of the education received. Grade compression, affirmative action and other abundant policies have essentially ruined primary and secondary education as well as most post secondary education.

Given the chance to do things again, I would probably join the military and make a career of it.

Dean
 
You bring up a good point. Not everyone needs to go to college to make it in this world. Some people do just fine without it. When I went to the UW-Madison for Horticulture I had to have 120 credits to graduate. Of those credits less than 30 were horticulture/ag related. I learned more working at a greenhouse for three years in highschool than I did at the university. Sadly I dropped out in 04 to pursue a career in farming. That didn't work so well and I had to get a real job. I learned very quickly that in some industries, skills and life experience don't matter as much on the pay scale as having that piece of paper saying your educated.
 
While I agree that many college degrees are a waste of money, we will be having problems in the future when we begin to look for Nuclear Engineers, RN"s, CPAs, Lawyers, Educators and similar occupations that require a college and maybe an advanced degree.

I wonder what would happen if we required colleges to only give so many degrees in "abundant Arts?" We are handing out too many degrees with no meat but a huge cost. And what about those parents that allow the child to pursue a silly path.

The L"Amour statement is quite interesting and quite valid but that author was able to read and digest the written word. Today"s students either can"t read above an 8th grade level, in many cases, or just don"t want to put out the effort.

I have been teaching in a high school for 30 years and find that students are taking less and less responsibility for their learning. But heck, mommy and daddy often bail them out of every situation. They do their laundry, they fill their car with gas, they wake them up in the AM (after they spent the night texting and gaming) and they pay their speeding tickets. I often wonder who is going to wipe their back ends when they go away to college!

Yes, we have a population that is becoming more and more schooled but less and less educated. Luckily we have people from other countries that know how to use our educational system to be best possible way and will become our scientists, doctors and businessmen.
 
Bigger companies, that pay better, screen applicants pretty well. No college, no interview, no job. With the big corporations, you won't ever get to talk to a person without a degree.
 
How about some people just are not meant for college? I know some folks that simply were not going to go.
If we look back 50 years ago, were the numbers much different. There was high school drop out rate and a percentage of those graduates that went to college. It is somewhat unrealistic to think that everyone is going to go to college. The system just can't support it.
The system may be correcting itself. Weeding out those that don't need to be there.

For those that are picking majors in college, are they looking at the job opportunities in those fields? If there isn't much opportunity and you know there is a bleak future, why are you pursuing it?
 
"Being a slave to get a pay check is a waste of human life". Never have I seen it better put. I can't imagine not working at something that makes me happy. Guess thats the reason for being a farmer for nearly fifty years. It couldn't have been for the money.
Joe
 
There are many good points in this thread.

I feel though that a student is going to get out of school whatever he/she puts into it, same as a job, same as life. Hopefully by the time someone is even considering college they know this. Many don't, and that is as much the fault of the parents as it is the fault of a lazy kid.

College is a tool (a very powerful one when used correctly), another few rungs on the ladder of life, and either you use it to get yourself farther along, or you don't. Some people can do it without college, some can do it with college, and some can do it even better with college. To each his own. But each person should actually think through this process, rather than following blindly the trend that seems to be the norm at the time.

As I recent college graduate working in his studied profession(architecture), I can say that college was well worth it for me ( and a lot of hard work) . But, now it is up to me, not my degree, to continue that career - you get out of it what you put into it.
 
This is exactly what I have been thinking. One day it struck me that wherever I looked at young people in positions requiring technical type degrees. They were all Chinese or Vietnamese or Indian. A lot of our native young people have good paying positions in the trades, and finance, or administration, but it looks like far fewer are going into technical work. Where is that going to put us long term?
 
Bowdoin College in Maine gets 50 grand for one year.Since my granddaughter has high marks the college will pay 37 grand of that.She has 11 grand in grants because of her school records.It depends on the students ability and the parents income.
 
So what are they going to do for a living? I would rather spend the cash on a marketable degree and take a chance on getting a good job rather than work for $15/hr. The daughter has a accounting degree (cost approx $120,000) but after five years is making over $100,000. In contrast the smarter but unmotivated son went to a much cheaper community collage for a two year degree, doesn't use it and is making only about $30,000/year repairing electronic stuff. A good degree pays dividends.
 
It really all depends on the person but things have also changed in the work world. Years ago you could walk on to a job, get hired and THEN learn a trade as you worked.
My wife is a teacher. Teachers are VERY well paid in Canada and have a retirement plan that's second to none. Her parents motivated her to go to university right after high school while many of her friends took jobs, bought vehicles etc. Whenever she would go home she'd be jealous that all her friends had nicer stuff than she did and lots of fun and freedom. Now it's the other way around!
I went the other way. After my first year of college my Dad passed away and for a variety of reasons, money being one of them as I was already in debt for my first year, I opted to get into the work world. I have been employed ever since. I regret not having finishing my course of study (electronics engineering) but I have had no problem holding down jobs that pay very well. Part of it might be because I live in a small town and I have proven myself very competent at what I do. In a larger city I might not be so lucky to find good work without a degree.
My feeling though is that the only thing that limits your success is YOU!
 
I will vote for the wife being right this time, sorry!

My son wears those shoes, and dad will not pay his way as to avoid abuse of a free ride.
 
A college degree is used as a screening tool. Lots of job applicants, few jobs. Require a degree, and you screen out a lot of folks. That means less work for the HR types.
 
A colledge education isn't what it used to be,now everyone has one,like a high school diploma.It doesn't guarantee a job or any success in life.Most of the successful bussiness people who built this country never had a college and some not even high school diploma.It's a big money making bussiness and people are brainwashed into believing it's important.
 
I was certified welder late 70's, good job, good pay when I worked, would get laid off every winter, some times 1 month, sometimes up to 3 months, each year unemployment dropped because it was figured on previous years, decided to go to college, worked in welding shop 9hrs a day, went to school at night, took 6 years to get 4 year degree that way but no debt. Interviewed for job I have had now for 25 years, was hired because he believed that work ethic showed drive and they would teach business end ( even though I had business degree) on the job. Proved to them I was trainable and willing to work. The willing to work and work hard is the part that is MOST important in any vocation, IMO Mark
 
My former boss has a Princeton degree in engineering. She will be leaving the company in a few months to have a baby. She has no plans of returning, going to be a stay at home mom. What a waste of a Princeton degree.
 
Some say a vocational education is great, in the area I live in they decided however many years ago between a vocational complex or a football stadium. The stadium won with the common season score for the local team is 0 wins to however many games they play.
While some of you say how the school system is ruined by external forces, the local high school complained about all the students they were receiving that couldn't read. The elementary/middle school wiped out their second elective and changed it to a reading class. A school can go a long way to improve education at the local level.
 
Thanks jpb (Joe) In my own thoughts I use the word "prostitute" rather then slave.. There are many millions too afraid to change jobs or move to another area of the "land of plenty" that has better conditions. I am talking mostly about younger people, under maybe 40 or so. I could be biased in that I did not have a close family member to consider. ag
 
Getting a college degree doesn't guarantee a good job. Not long ago a group of us were at one of the Toledo Metropark facilities. Talked with a couple of the workers. Found out two of the park workers have phd's, and the gal said most have master's. She had a masters, said she never thought she'd be working in a park. Our daughter's been a paralegal for quite a while. To help her get a better job she went back to college and got a bs degree, on the dean's list. Didn't help a bit with the job situation, in fact, less pay with hours cut.
 
I've never kept a job I didn't like just because it paid well. Ever. Life is too short to dislike more than a third of your day every day.

Christopher
 
Well----if the National Service Act becomes a reality there will eventually be many that will get a couple of years of free college. Why pay for it now if you can wait a short while and get much of it for free?

Expect in the down economy there are fewer jobs that require a college degree and instead just call for a good work ethic---like showing up on time and being clean of appearance. Want fries with that?
 
I don't have a degree, but I make more than my wife who has a masters degree. I'm a Firefighter/Paramedic, and she's a Special Ed teacher. So some times it's the field you go into that determines whether a degree is useful. BTW, I do have a couple of years of college, I just took the courses that were interesting to me.
 
Agreed. You determine is someone can put up with 4 years of BS and make it through it with a passing grade. You then know that person can probably work for your company and get the job done.
 
Lots of good points and a few comments that are way off base in this topic.

I wouldn't say that college kids have a better or worse work ethic than those that don't attend college.

Most parents that I know want their kids to have it better than they did, so they help them financially while they're in school, help them with a down payment on their first home, etc.

Someone mentioned $15 an hour being low pay. I'll agree it's not great but here in IL that's decent pay.

A stay at home Mom is a great thing. Don't care if it's "wasting" a Princeton education.

I agree most colleges cost more than they should by requiring classes that have nothing to do with your major, or ability to manage your personal affairs.
I also think colleges could do a much better job of placing their grads in jobs.
High school curriculum should be geared more towards making kids more employable.

Many companies won't even consider applicants that don't have a 2 year associates degree. That's what it takes to get a job as a floor sweeper in a local factory.

Someone mentioned getting in the trades. In some areas the unions are not accepting new members. My brother in law is a union carpenter. He worked for us before he joined the union. It took many years before he got enough work to earn more money than I did, even though he made more per hour. He stuck with it and it should pay off nicely when he retires.
Another thing to consider is the toll working on construction takes on the body. Back, knee, shoulder and hand problems are very common for those that work construction 20-30 years.

Being stuck in a job you don't like was mentioned. I probably know more people that don't like their jobs than those that do. Sometimes it's just a coworker they can't get along with, sometimes they just plain don't like what they do for a living. Family and financial circumstances often keep people from looking for a different line of work.


My son got his masters last year. He still can't find a job in his field (economics). The entry level jobs in his field are being filled by guys with 3-5 years experience because they've lost their jobs due to the lousy economy. The guys with 3-5 years experience were often making 60-80K (or more) a year are now taking jobs at 40-50K.

I'd say kids not heading to college right out of high school could be a good thing. That gives them a chance to figure out what they really want to do. They could also work and attend community college to get some of the required gen ed classes out of the way.
 
I agree with Pops1532 as well as a lot other posters. One thing is that not ALL college degrees are created equal. There are universities that are geared toward more theoretical aspects of a subject than those geared more toward practical use of the knowledge.

I also agree that a general degree in abundant Arts may not have a direct application to a specific job, but having good writing/communication skills is a a benefit in ANY position these days. The key is that you're doing what you want to do for the next 40 yrs or so. Whether it's being a plumber, welder, teacher, doctor, lawyer, etc.

The problem today is that graduating from HS and saying "here I am world, give me a job" isn't reality anymore. Most of the entry-level jobs are gone, especially in manufacturing.

Plus, even having a degree doesn't set you apart from the thousands of other applicants for a job. Companies have to look at things that make YOUR resume jump out at them and for a college student who went straight out of HS, this usually means internships (unpaid usually), volunteer work, work-study in your chosen field, etc.

What I will say is that I often hear people say that the sole reason for their son/daughter not going to college is cost. Or they can only afford to go to the local community college. When I mention loans, they say they don't want their kid to graduate with tens of thousands in debt. I think that is being very short-sighted. All 3 of my daughters have or will have several hundred thousands of dollars in loans. But... in their professions they will earn so much more that they will be able to pay those loans off in less than 10 years. A great investment in my mind.

The thing to remember is that the original question does not have a "one size fits all" answer.
 
I am a college kid going to a two year school studying Building and Highway Construction and the main reason i wont go on to college is cost society complains about people being in debt and then ya turn around and make every kid going to college in that same hole, i would love to further my education but financially i cant. hopefully i get a job when i graduate and maybe one day can go back, but we all know how that story ends
 
I'm A 67 grad of SUNY Alfred, Ag Engineering. The degree never ment muchto me because I came back home to the family farm machinery business. This past winter at 63 years old,I went back to SUNY Morrisville to attend workshops dealing with renewable energy technology. They are offering 2 and 4 yr degrees. They got a $2m grant from the Federal Dept. of Labor. Pays 1/2 my costs. The unemployed clasmates get 95% of their cost. This is a great program, which will reducate displaced workers and train collage aged students in this excigting new industry. The mixture of collage aged students and old duffers like me has proved to be very positive. Seems funny though when your prof. is your kids age. I have learned a lot from everyone involved, and plan on attending more courses this coming winter.
 
(quoted from post at 18:02:55 08/11/10) I agree with Pops1532 as well as a lot other posters. One thing is that not ALL college degrees are created equal. There are universities that are geared toward more theoretical aspects of a subject than those geared more toward practical use of the knowledge.

I also agree that a general degree in abundant Arts may not have a direct application to a specific job, but having good writing/communication skills is a a benefit in ANY position these days. The key is that you're doing what you want to do for the next 40 yrs or so. Whether it's being a plumber, welder, teacher, doctor, lawyer, etc.

The problem today is that graduating from HS and saying "here I am world, give me a job" isn't reality anymore. Most of the entry-level jobs are gone, especially in manufacturing.

Plus, even having a degree doesn't set you apart from the thousands of other applicants for a job. Companies have to look at things that make YOUR resume jump out at them and for a college student who went straight out of HS, this usually means internships (unpaid usually), volunteer work, work-study in your chosen field, etc.

[b:28a103ca72]What I will say is that I often hear people say that the sole reason for their son/daughter not going to college is cost. Or they can only afford to go to the local community college. When I mention loans, they say they don't want their kid to graduate with tens of thousands in debt. I think that is being very short-sighted. All 3 of my daughters have or will have several hundred thousands of dollars in loans. But... in their professions they will earn so much more that they will be able to pay those loans off in less than 10 years. A great investment in my mind. [/b:28a103ca72]

The thing to remember is that the original question does not have a "one size fits all" answer.
Click to expand...
People go into debt to buy lots of things. Most debt doesn't make sense. A home mortgage so you have a place to live, an auto loan so you have dependable transportation make sense. A good way for kids to think of student loans is an investment in their future.
 
Went to stay out of the rice paddy instead ending up in HQ in Germany for a year and retired 36 years later with a health card for life and pension.

HS drop out rate is just out of site. State prisons are filling up with under educated types with no hope to come out with anything but junk jobs.

College text books are running 300 bucks each so times have changed from the 7 dollar books.

Did not care for time clocks and sweating a lot so it worked for me.

Hard to believe the last I read about Des Moines, Ia they have a 50% HS drop out rate. Also Detroit is about the same.

Have seen a lot of People with BS degrees living with Mom and no job in their forties that is no job ever.
 
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